[Vision2020] Huh?
Sunil Ramalingam
sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
Sat Dec 22 23:21:19 PST 2012
Dammit Paul, I was going to say that: There are two words for a place with guards all over the place: Police State. There, I said it anyway. I just read an interesting article that I'll link to later, about how there are guards and soldiers all over India now. I can't vouch for its accuracy; I haven't been there since '86. I'll look for it tomorrow if the Steelers don't destroy my will to live.
Sunil
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 21:22:19 -0800
From: godshatter at yahoo.com
To: godshatter at yahoo.com; scooterd408 at hotmail.com; philosopher.joe at gmail.com; jampot at roadrunner.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Huh?
I'm replying to myself here, but I forgot to mention that item 3 is the path that leads to a police state, if someone gets the big idea that all venues must be secured at all costs. There is a price for freedom.
Paul
From: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
To: Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com>; "philosopher.joe at gmail.com" <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>; "jampot at roadrunner.com" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
Cc: viz <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2012 9:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Huh?
For all my fans that have missed me, my apologies, I've been traveling.
I'm not a big fan of the NRA proposal for a few reasons, mainly:
1. It's too much work for too little gain.
2. I don't want our kids growing up thinking that there's a maniac behind every bush.
3. It only covers one venue, these people that go on killing sprees (we need a name for them) will simply move to the next easy target. A high school football game, a park, a
department store, whatever.
To explain item 1, I mean that even if we did have someone stationed in each and every elementary school in the nation, and even if all future mass killers decide they *have* to target elementary schools, they will simply target security personnel first. This might help, but it doesn't solve the problem of
stopping them from doing it at all. But the real reason I think it too much work for too little gain is that assaults like this happen very rarely to elementary schools. It may seem cold and callous, but bad things happen and we don't need to rework our civilization every time something bad does happen. Effective solutions make sense to implement, but something on this scale is simply too much. It's akin to forcing every plane commuter to have their shoes examined every time they board a plane because some schmuck tried (and failed) to light a shoe bomb. We need sensible solutions.
While this idea is a more direct response to the problem than simply banning automatic rifles, I just don't think it's a good idea. Since we're throwing things out on the table, I think we should look at the laws surrounding how to get someone with mental problems help without goading them into a killing spree. How do we
identify these people, and how do we protect the rights of the individual at the same time? I think that's a much more pertinent question than how to handle the gun issue. If we can solve that one, then we won't need thousands of armed guards protecting out kids.
One possible upside to this proposal is that these guards might help deter child abductions (usually by one parent or another). One possible downside is that the last time we hired security personnel en masse, we got the TSA screeners, which have been a wonderful example of how bad an idea this could be.
Paul
From: Scott Dredge
<scooterd408 at hotmail.com>
To: philosopher.joe at gmail.com; jampot at roadrunner.com
Cc: viz <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2012 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Huh?
Joe,
You may ultimately be right that 'it is a bad plan', but obviously not everyone has come to that same conclusion. IMO it would be a good use of time to FULLY vet that proposal along with its advantages (if any) and disadvantages. And if you know things that others don't and it's all crystal clear to you, then by all means shoot holes in the idea and preferably with cold hard verifiable facts and statistics.
<it might draw shooters since most of them are suicidal as well as homicidal>
Have the FBI profilers weigh in on this
Have mental health professionals weigh in on this
<The plan is economically unfeasible.>
Show the economic numbers in comparison to the price of unleashed mayhem
Put forth all ideas of funding prevention programs and similarly fully vet each of those ideas
Ultimately the plan either stands up to detailed scrutiny or can be
demonstrably shown as unfeasible. unwise, etc. The NRA says this is the answer and they have legions of supporters that take that as the gospel truth since this 'group think' seems to be a human attribute as can be seen almost everywhere in politics, religion, v2020, and so on.
Reasonable people can clearly see the truth when it's presented clearly, crisply, and - above all - accurately. As for unreasonable people, there's no hope for them.
-Scott
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 11:11:19 -0800
From: philosopher.joe at gmail.com
To: jampot at roadrunner.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Huh?
Gary,
I'm happy to discuss this issue with you but that would mean we would have to discuss it. People keep mentioning specific criticisms about the NRA plan, referring you and others to articles and
television interviews where the plan is discussed and dismissed, yet I don't see any real discussion of the plan from its supporters. I have not seen many responses to the criticisms other than "It might work." Like that was a reason for seriously the plan.
Let me be more specific. Here are two recent criticisms that have not yet been responded to. They are recent, so maybe that is the reason: one by Dan and one by Sunil. Sunil writes:
With regard to the NRA response: As my memory serves me, I think we've had shootouts at the following locations in the last 12-18 months:
-an elementary school;
-a shopping mall;
-a cinema;
-a Sikh temple;
-a political rally (that was >18 months ago, I think).
Should we have armed guards to protect us from each other at all of those locations?
This broadens the economic argument that I was giving. The plan is economically unfeasible. It isn't JUST that it is irresponsible -- a huge federal program in a time of economic crisis -- it is unfeasible.
Second, Dan notes that there are questions about the need for the plan. He writes: "there was significant security present when Gabrielle Giffords was shot." Why think the security will help? You are ready to launch a huge governmental program and it isn't even clear that it will do any good. Saundra noted that it might draw shooters since most of them are suicidal as well as homicidal.
So how do you or any others respond to these criticisms of the NRA plan? Let's discuss it. I want to get this over with because this is a bad plan and we are wasting a lot of time talking about it. Let's see why it is a bad plan and move on to a better plan.
Joe
On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 6:37 AM, Gary Crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
I thought the point here was to discuss options. Do you
imagine that being extra unpleasant lends an extra level of credence to your
point of view?
g
From: Saundra Lund
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 8:18 PM
To: 'Gary Crabtree' ; 'viz'
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Huh?
It
worked soo well at Columbine, didn’t it?
Confrontation
by the armed officer on campus & the exchange of fire drove one of the
shooters back into the school to continue the slaughter. There’s a
stellar success!
Oops
– but don’t confuse you with reality & facts, right?
Saundra
From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
[mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Crabtree
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 1:40 PM
To: Joe
Campbell
Cc: viz
Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
Huh?
Training to become a cop in Idaho is 10 weeks making time not
much of an issue. There are quite a few things covered in POST that a school
guard would not need training in (pursuit driving, crime scene investigation,
etc. ) further reducing the time needed to get qualified people in place.
Utilizing vets who were MP's or members of security detachments along with
retired police officers would be prime candidates for positions such as
this.
All entry doors in a facility could be easily modified to
emergency exit only except for one. This would make it so all visitors would be
funneled through one door and past one armed guard.
I really don't see what make this idea so unworkable other
then the fact that it doesn't jibe very well with the anti-gun
agenda.
g
On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 11:26 AM, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com> wrote:
Scott,
There was an
Assistant Director of the FBI on CNN today explaining why this cannot be
implemented. Think of the training required before you release folks with guns
onto school campuses. Then think of the number of schools, the number of doors
to the school that would need to be guarded, the costs of training and hiring an
education militia, and the number of qualified people available for those
positions. This is a bad idea that does not stand a chance of getting passed.
Forget about it and move on to some actual solution.
Best,
Joe
On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 10:29 AM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com> wrote:
Armed security is something that
could be implemented, regulated, and enforced much more easily than gun control,
gun bans, etc. Armed security guards could be subjected to more rigorous
background and mental heath checks plus mandatory training and licensing without
having that pesky 2nd Amendment coming into the mix. Somewhat similar to
how we supposedly have air marshalls on some flights. This might be one of
the very few things that the Republicans would actually be OK to put on the
fragile shoulders of tax paying individuals and businesses.
From: thansen at moscow.com
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 09:36:59
-0800
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020]
Huh?
"Before Congress reconvenes, before we engage in any lengthy
debate over legislation, regulation or anything else, as soon as our kids return
to school after the holiday break, we need to have every single school in
America immediately deploy a protection program proven to work — and by that I
mean armed security."
- Wayne LaPierre, Executive Vice President of the
National Rifle Association (December 21, 2012)
http://tinyurl.com/cphq5lp
------------------------------------
Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
"Moscow Cares"
http://www.MoscowCares.com
Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho
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