[Vision2020] Isn't it about time . . .
Paul Rumelhart
godshatter at yahoo.com
Tue Dec 18 23:10:46 PST 2012
I don't know the answer, either. Right now, we're looking at this guy
through the filter of recent events. I'm sure he looked a lot different
through his mother's filters. To us, he seems like a monster out of a
particularly nasty fairy tale. To his mom, who knows what he looked
like. She may have simply trusted him with the guns, despite whatever
signs she may have chosen to ignore.
Paul
On 12/18/2012 10:58 PM, Sue Hovey wrote:
> Paul, it’s second guessing, but I, too, have wondered why she didn’t
> keep them in a gun safe. Surely not all were bought for self
> protection. She had talked with others about enjoying the shooting
> range. This isn’t meant to be a rationale for anything, just a sidebar.
> Sue H.
> *From:* Paul Rumelhart <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 18, 2012 1:02 PM
> *To:* Donovan Arnold <mailto:donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> ; Saundra
> Lund <mailto:v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm>
> *Cc:* 'vision 2020' <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Isn't it about time . . .
> I'd also like to point out that all the mental health evaluations in
> the world needed to purchase a gun wouldn't have helped in this case
> because they weren't his guns to begin with.
>
> Once the hysteria dies down, thinking up ways that we can help ensure
> that gun owners are more responsible with their guns at home when they
> are not being used would be a good idea. If this guy's mother had
> kept her guns in a gun safe, he would have had a harder time getting
> to them. They would have been safe from any children that might have
> been in the house as well, and probably would have made them less
> accident-prone as well. The downside is that they are not immediately
> available if you hear a prowler in the house.
>
> Paul
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
> *To:* Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>; Saundra Lund
> <v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm>
> *Cc:* 'vision 2020' <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 18, 2012 9:58 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Isn't it about time . . .
> I don't know about you, but I still see lots of dangerous idiots
> behind the wheel of cars regardless of all the regulations.
> Unfortunately, regardless of the timing or breathe of time allowed to
> resolve an issue, the nation usually chooses political and financial
> solutions for the wealthy,not realistic ones that resolve the real
> problems for the average person.
> My bet will be the average person will have to pay an extra $100 a
> year to go to the mental health professionals that are lobbying
> Congress to do bullshit mental health evaluations on all persons
> wanting to purchase certain particular automatic rifles that will not
> even be in production in a year.
> Its kind of like the physicals truck drivers are required to take
> before pulling an 80,000 load down the highway. You can tell just by
> looking at a 72 year old, chain smoking, 350lbs driver he could drop
> dead any minute (and they do, even while driving), but they get their
> DOT health clearance cards anyways, by simply paying the $100.
> Donovan J. Arnold
> *From:* Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> *To:* Saundra Lund <v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm>
> *Cc:* 'vision 2020' <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, December 17, 2012 9:41 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Isn't it about time . . .
> On 12/17/2012 08:14 PM, Saundra Lund wrote:
>> Paul wrote:
>> “Anything we try to do in the meantime will almost certainly be an
>> overreaction.”
>> Hogwash.
>> Given the horrendous regularity of gun violence in this nation, how
>> convenient for people to propose that *after* violence isn’t the
>> time to look at much needed and long overdue reforms. That position
>> guarantees reform will *never* happen because there will *never* be
>> enough time between incidents. And, frankly, I don’t know how those
>> who’ve continued to advocate the “hands off” approach to meaningful
>> reform dare to look in their damn mirrors anymore.
>
> You are generally a calm, rational poster. You mention a solution
> below (treating guns with the same types of laws we treat buying,
> selling, and operating cars) that has promise and should be
> discussed. Watch over the next few days, on this list and on the
> national stage, what solutions will be proposed. I could be wrong,
> but I expect calm, rational solutions to be in the minority.
>
>> Fortunately, many people are far more capable of reasoned thinking in
>> crisis than you want to give us credit for. Besides, Paul, quite a
>> few people, including a lot of really smart ones, have been
>> discussing reasonable reform long before the SHES tragedy. It’s not
>> like the lunacy of gun violence in America is new.
>> Long before the SHES tragedy, I was beyond heartbroken by the nearly
>> daily news coverage of this child or that being accidentally shot –
>> and often killed -- by their parents’ weapons. And, I was beyond
>> weary of this person or that being killed by a stolen gun or a gun
>> purchased through the gun show loophole that *never* should have been
>> sold to an individual. It’s crystal clear to me that far too many
>> “gun enthusiasts” take advantage of their right to have whatever
>> weapons their hearts’ desire without taking the *responsibility* that
>> goes along with having those weapons, and anyone who argues that
>> isn’t the case is a damn fool or a damn liar. When products have
>> hurt or killed far, far fewer than those who are victims or survivors
>> of gun violence, we *demand* reform. What on earth is wrong with
>> people who choose to accept the shameless fear-mongering of the
>> despicable NRA over good-ol’ *American *common sense?!?
>
> There is plenty of room for compromise here, as long as both sides of
> the conversation can actually happen. In this media circus
> atmosphere, who dares stand up for the original intent of the Second
> Amendment, when "think of the children!" is all that we will hear? I'm
> damn tired of people trying to manipulate me through fear. In 2009
> there were 11,493 firearm related homicides in the U.S. In 2009 there
> were also 125,464 deaths due to acute myocardial infarction. Are
> people going to get up in arms about the bad health of the average
> American the next time a celebrity dies of a heart attack with the
> same fervour that is happening right now over this massacre? I doubt
> it, because this is a spectacle and it sells. Thus, my earlier
> contention that it might be a good idea to wait until Lindsay Lohan
> goes to rehab again and the media spotlight turns on her before we can
> make any serious progress that has a hope of standing up in court.
>
>> Paul also wrote:
>> “For instance, if I said "the second amendment is about more than
>> protecting kindergartners from being shot", I would currently be
>> lambasted as an uncaring person who is dancing on the graves of 6
>> year-olds or something.”
>> Nonsense, and I’m getting pretty tired of your very frequent
>> “everybody always picks on me” belly-aching. Is this paranoia a part
>> of your daily life, or do you just show it here?
>
> It's not a cry for help, it's merely a prediction. When previous
> attempts at calm, rational discourse have been twisted so horribly, so
> many times, you start to see a pattern emerge. One that even a myopic
> social liberal, fiscal conservative, and civil libertarian will notice
> after a while.
>
> Paul
>
>> https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/184429_419049228164756_1572175596_n.png
>> Saundra
>> *From:*vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
>> <mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com>
>> [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] *On Behalf Of *Paul Rumelhart
>> *Sent:* Monday, December 17, 2012 4:39 PM
>> *To:* Sue Hovey; Sunil Ramalingam; vision 2020
>> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Isn't it about time . . .
>> A few days after the accident when they are discussing the funerals
>> on TV of the kids and are interviewing bereaved parents and getting
>> the "man on the street's" view of things is a horrible time to try to
>> sit down and have a rational conversation about what we can and
>> cannot do to help strengthen our gun laws or figure out a better way
>> to deal with mental health problems. It's a great time to act if you
>> are a group that has a preset agenda and just happens to have a bill
>> all written up that you have been dying to pass, but that won't help
>> anyone but the people with the agendas. See our reaction as a
>> country to 9/11 as a good lesson on this topic.
>>
>> I'm hoping lawmakers will wait until the passion of the moment has
>> died down and we have some distance before we try to rework the gun
>> laws. Fat chance, I know.
>>
>> For instance, if I said "the second amendment is about more than
>> protecting kindergartners from being shot", I would currently be
>> lambasted as an uncaring person who is dancing on the graves of 6
>> year-olds or something. *Maybe* in a few weeks we'll be able to
>> really discuss it. Anything we try to do in the meantime will almost
>> certainly be an overreaction.
>>
>> Paul
>> *From:*Sue Hovey <suehovey at moscow.com <mailto:suehovey at moscow.com>>
>> *To:* Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
>> <mailto:sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>>; vision 2020
>> <vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>>
>> *Cc:* Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com
>> <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>>
>> *Sent:* Monday, December 17, 2012 3:07 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Isn't it about time . . .
>>
>>
>> “Knee-jerk reaction or fear-driven acts.” Those are interesting but
>> patronizing ways to characterize the responses to these killings, and
>> of the same mindset, I think, as “guns don’t kill people.” We need
>> to be considering all our options and we should have been doing that
>> for a very long time. Those of us who live here, own guns, and use
>> them for hunting and self-protection need to be willing to look at
>> the cultural issues that are bigger than our own mindsets. Might it
>> not be that we need to consider restating the Second Amendment in
>> such a way as to prohibit private ownership of certain types of
>> armament? We already do some of that within the scope of the
>> amendment; why not look further? Why not consider the way we
>> publicize the events...the murderer, who may have never had much in
>> the way of self gratification, can be sure if his, yes his, crime is
>> of a certain magnitude, he will be remembered for the way it was
>> publicized with his face on every newscast and every front page? A
>> First Amendment question....dare we consider it? There are a lot
>> of issues here, none of them trivial.
>> Sue H.
>> *From:*Sunil Ramalingam <mailto:sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
>> *Sent:*Monday, December 17, 2012 2:06 PM
>> *To:*vision 2020 <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> *Subject:*Re: [Vision2020] Isn't it about time . . .
>> But the cartoon doesn't advocate banning all guns. It shows someone
>> leaving the NRA, which opposes the regulation you find reasonable.
>>
>> The NRA's response to regulation is fear-driven. It's one of their
>> marketing techniques, or to use another of your terms below, a
>> knee-jerk reaction.
>>
>> Sunil
>> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 14:01:04 -0800
>> From: godshatter at yahoo.com <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Isn't it about time . . .
>> To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com <mailto:sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>;
>> vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> There's a difference between being prepared and simply reacting to
>> something. I take a blanket and a flashlight with me on winter trips
>> in the car, I carry jumper cables in the trunk, I have smoke alarms
>> and a fire extinguisher in my house, I bring a space blanket, some
>> matches, and a folding knife with me when I go hiking, and I keep a
>> gun at home in case I need to protect myself.
>>
>> Banning all guns because someone used one in a horrifying way appears
>> to me to be more of a fear-driven act. There is definitely room for
>> improvement in who we sell guns to and how well we learn how to use
>> them but that's a discussion that should happen after the knee-jerk
>> reactions have passed.
>>
>> Paul
>> *From:*Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
>> <mailto:sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>>
>> *To:* vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>>
>> *Sent:* Monday, December 17, 2012 1:33 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Isn't it about time . . .
>> Paul,
>>
>> Doesn't that apply to both sides of the argument?
>>
>> Sunil
>> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 13:27:10 -0800
>> From: godshatter at yahoo.com <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>
>> To: thansen at moscow.com <mailto:thansen at moscow.com>;
>> vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Isn't it about time . . .
>> If you want your life to be ruled by fear-driven reflex, sure.
>>
>> Paul
>> *From:*Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com <mailto:thansen at moscow.com>>
>> *To:* Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com
>> <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>>
>> *Sent:* Monday, December 17, 2012 12:44 PM
>> *Subject:* [Vision2020] Isn't it about time . . .
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
>>
>> "Moscow Cares"
>> http://www.moscowcares.com/
>>
>> Tom Hansen
>> Moscow, Idaho
>>
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