[Vision2020] [Spam 3.90] Re: Concealed Hand Gun Laws

Thu Dec 13 08:02:06 PST 2012

Overall I agree with much of what you say but (a) if there are folks
in prison that shouldn't be there, then there are likely criminals
running free, and (b) personally I don't want to go through life
having killed someone, even in self-defense. It is easier to say
you'll get over it than it is to get over it.

On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 5:53 AM, Gary Crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> The CWP makes no difference in the equation. If the situation is such that
> you feel you must defend your life, you do and let the chips fall where they
> may. What kind of idiot decides that it would be better to die then have to
> give the police an explanation that seems tough to swallow.
>
> I'm not so sure that people get away with murder "all the time." I'm fairly
> sure that there are people in prison in error. Life doesn't come with
> guarantees. This would have to be the genesis of the trite old saw " better
> to be judged by 12 then carried by 6.
>
> g
>
> From: Dan Carscallen
> Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 8:17 PM
> To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [Spam 3.90] Re: Concealed Hand Gun Laws
>
> Not sure if I'm creating another plot hole or what . . .
>
> You fired a warning shot and your attacker continued. Perhaps he was on bath
> salts, or suffered from some mental malady, or was deaf(?)
>
> I would think your defense attorney would look into the history of your
> "attacker", but your thought experiment is quite the sticky wicket
>
> DC
>
> On Dec 12, 2012, at 20:08, "Robert Dickow" <dickow at turbonet.com> wrote:
>
> I’ll try to cover all the plot holes in my thought experiment in order to
> focus on the central issue: In the poorly-lit street I see a flash of light
> on an object the perp is carrying, and I think it’s a knife. Only later I
> learn that it is a flash of light off a reflective wrist band or jewelry
> ornament. I fire the second shot (the first is a warning shot),  at fairly
> close range, after a brief struggle. There are no witnesses so it doesn’t
> matter if I say that, yes, I yelled a lot. Let’s say I did but it only seems
> to enrage the attacker. Let’s say the perp appears intoxicated or insane and
> is making threatening remarks, frightening me. No witnesses, remember.  I’m
> the only one seeing and hearing her/him so there is no way to prove that
> there were verbal threats or warnings. I might have escaped without firing,
> and considered doing so, but it was a fast-moving situation,  my escape
> route appeared blocked by a nearby delivery van and some stacked
> construction materials. There was indeed my first warning shot, but the perp
> did not cease his/her advance. Through a fluke of luck the shoves and
> punches I received did not leave a lasting mark on my person or clothing.
>
>
>
> It’s the ability to prove self-defense that I’m exploring, not principally
> the gun thing per se. The item of self-defense could have been a knife or
> just my bare hands I suppose. The point I’m hinting at is that maybe, one
> had better have some good witnesses when defending oneself in certain
> situations. However, a further implication is that if I had only a knife or
> my bare hands for self-defense, I might have been more likely to attempt to
> run away or continue fighting off the attacker.
>
>
>
> Bob Dickow, troublemaker
>
>
>
> From: Tom Hansen [mailto:thansen at moscow.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 7:27 PM
> To: Robert Dickow
> Cc: Moscow Vision 2020
> Subject: [Spam 3.90] Re: [Vision2020] Concealed Hand Gun Laws
>
>
>
> You say that the perp attacked you.  How did (s)he attack you?  Was it
> sufficient to leave scars on your body?
>
>
>
> What was it about the perp that made you feel threatened, other than mere
> surprise?
>
>
>
> Could you have escaped the situation without having to use a weapon?
>
>
>
> Under what circumstances was the fatal round fired? Accidental due to close
> physical interaction?  Could you have fired a warning shot or warned the
> perp, "Hey sh*thead!  I have a gun and I WILL use it unless you leave
> RIGHT-FU*KING NOW!"
>
>
>
> Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
>
>
>
> "Moscow Cares"
>
> http://www.MoscowCares.com
>
>
>
> Tom Hansen, CPL  (Commie Pinko Liberal)
>
> Moscow, Idaho
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 12, 2012, at 7:12 PM, "Robert Dickow" <dickow at turbonet.com> wrote:
>
> I am being serious now…
>
>
>
> This question has no doubt been addressed by various experts, but I just
> thought up a situation that poses a question in my mind about ethics and
> legal practicalities:
>
>
>
> Let’s say, for the sake of this thought experiment, that I own a handgun
> that I carry, concealed, for my personal self defense.  I find myself alone
> on a dark city street and I am surprise attacked by a lone individual (whom
> I perceive a mugger), who ignores my shouts and warnings. My shouts are not
> noticed by anyone in the neighborhood. I shoot and kill the person, who I
> feel is threatening my life. There are no witnesses or recorded phone calls
> (unlike the Trayvon Martin shooting). I have not suffered any visible
> injuries. How do I prove that I shot in self-defense?
>
>
>
> Offhand I don’t see how I can ‘prove’ self-defense.  I can only claim self
> defense. Why couldn’t the county prosecutor say ‘BS’ and have me put me away
> for life? Is my thought experiment a situation in which I really can’t, or
> should not, use the gun? Or, from another line of thinking, if I can simply
> declare self-defense in a case like this, I could ‘legally’ go out and shoot
> an innocent pedestrian on a whim, and I could get away with murder.
>
>
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
>
> Bob Dickow, troublemaker
>
>
>
>
>
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