[Vision2020] The GOP War On Women Accelerates
Art Deco
art.deco.studios at gmail.com
Fri Aug 24 11:45:55 PDT 2012
Start a new thread for this topic, Andy.
w.
On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 2:26 PM, Andy Boyd <moscowrecycling at turbonet.com>wrote:
> Romney's new energy plan does not mention climate change once.
> Creates lots of jobs and will have us producing all our own energy by 2020.
> Do you think this can be done without destroying the planet?
>
> Andy Boyd
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
> On Behalf Of lfalen
> Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 10:49 AM
> To: Nicholas Gier; Joe Campbell
> Cc: vision2020
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The GOP War On Women Accelerates
>
> Nick
> I resent your Don't pretend statement. I do not watch TV and do not follow
> what the legislature is doing on the internet. I also do not read long
> posts on the vision, such as a lot of yours and Wayne's. When I had a
> computer hooked up to the internet, I printed them off to read. Since I no
> longer have a printer hooked to the internet, I skip them. I read a lot of
> magazines. Those that relate to politics are National Review, Reason, Time,
> Newsweek, The Week, Newsmax and too some extent Skeptical Inquirer. While I
> do not read them word for word, I do not recall Ryan's bill on abortion
> being discussed. I respectfully answered your questions. If you continue
> this line of bullshit, I will not respond to any of your posts.Ths may be a
> high priority to you, but not nesearily to everyone else.
> Your arguments on the trimester start of life hae some merit. So do the
> the arguments of those that argue it starts at conception.
> I agree with Scott that a baby outside the womb should be protected, but
> the procedure for partial term abortion is atrocious and macabre. If that
> does not turn your stomach, I don't kow what will. If that does not bother
> you at least a little bit, you should get down off your moral perch.
> Joe's statements are reasonable and so are Donovan's. I do not agree with
> Andy that Rommey/Ryan will push to make abortion illegal regardless of
> circumstances. If they do I would disagree with them, but it is not a make
> or brake thing.
> I do not understand the terms legitimate rape, justiciable rape and
> forceable rape. I would think that by definition all rape is forceable. The
> only exception I can think is if a person has sex with someone who has
> passed out due to being drunk I quess you could call that passive rape.
> What has been overlooked here is the rights of the unborn. They are
> defenseless and bear no no responsibility for their circumstance, unlike
> everyone else involved except rape victims.
> While important, abortion and gay marriage are secondary issues. The
> important issues are the economy and jobs. Lets get our priorities in order
> and not get bogged down in secondary issues.
>
>
> Keep your eye on the UI Administration. The 2% raise is misleading. It is
> for teaching only. CALS's mission involves a lot of research. The 2%
> applies to only that portion that is teaching. Those that do not teach get
> nothing. While faculty and staff have been reduced, CALS just hired two
> new secretaries. The folks that got the Climate Change grant have wasted a
> lot of money by buying 5 new ventricles.
> Again lets get our priorities straight and concentrate on the economy and
> jobs.
> Roger
>
> -----Original message-----
> From: Nicholas Gier ngier006 at gmail.com
> Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 11:08:04 -0700
> To: Joe Campbell philosopher.joe at gmail.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The GOP War On Women Accelerates
>
> > Hi Roger,
> >
> > Don't pretend that you don't know about the extreme abortion
> > legislation and Ryan and Akin cosponsored with the phrase "justifiable
> > rape" in it. I repeat my question to you: do you support a V-P
> > candidate with such radical views? If Akin has to go, so does Ryan,
> > and so does every Republican who supports a GOP plank that does not
> exempt rape--legitimate or otherwise.
> >
> > Hi Joe,
> >
> > It's very rare that I disagree with you, but abortion is a profound
> > moral issue that philosophers have an obligation to address so as to
> > inform those who make the law. And, as I have repeatedly done on this
> > list, strong arguments can be made for the pro-choice position.
> >
> > Ironically, Paul Ryan now says that he follows Thomas Aquinas and not
> > Ayn Rand. Aquinas, however, supported canon law, which held that
> > abortion was permissible through the first trimester. (This was not
> > changed until 1917.) His doctrine of the soul, drawn from Aristotle,
> > actually was in line with Roe v. Wade. Our moral, legal, and
> > religious tradition always supported "choice" in early pregnancy and
> > the facts of fetal physiology support that tradition.
> >
> > Ayn Rand believed in woman's right to choose and I believe that should
> > be the libertarian position as well.
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 6:19 AM, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com
> >wrote:
> >
> > > Roger and other conservatives oversimplify the abortion debate. The
> > > debate isn't the philosophical debate Roger tries to engage in:
> > > whether or not abortion is morally permissible. That is a debate
> > > about which no consensus will ever be reached. It doesn't have the
> > > kind of clarity needed for matters of the law.
> > >
> > > The real is really a matter of individual choice and religious
> > > freedom. Do Roger or Akin or Ryan etc. have the right to settle a
> > > very complex and personal issue for everyone else? The answer to
> > > that is clearly 'No' and one would have to be pretty arrogant to think
> otherwise.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Aug 22, 2012, at 10:21 PM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > Well I wouldn't call myself a Democrat, but I am definitely extreme
> > > on abortion rights:
> > >
> > > - Whether or not to abort a pregnancy at ANY time during the
> > > pregnancy for ANY reason is the choice of the woman
> > > - In cases where the pregnancy threatens the life of the pregnant
> > > woman, she should not be forced against her will to terminate the
> > > pregnancy
> > > - A baby completely outside the womb of its mother should be treated
> > > / protected
> > >
> > > As far as your condition that 'abortion should not be used as a form
> > > of birth control', why not? There is no form of birth control that
> > > is 100% effective at preventing pregnancy. Thus, when whatever
> > > non-perfect (pick any one) birth control being used has failed, then
> > > abortion is a perfectly justifiable reason to terminate a pregnancy
> > > that was unintended and unwanted in the first place. You know what
> might be a good idea Roger?
> > > Maybe men should just stop knocking up women against their wishes
> > > and there would be far fewer unwanted / unintended pregnancies that
> > > end up being aborted.
> > >
> > > Google up 'Paul Ryan forcible rape' and let us know your thoughts.
> > > My guess is that these jokers don't want a 'rape exception' to
> > > abortion bans because then women might 'lie about being raped' to
> > > get an abortion for their unwanted pregnancy. With a 'rape
> > > exception', the abortion ban will lack the necessary teeth in it to
> > > allow state and local governments to force these women to carry
> > > their unwanted pregnancies to term against their will.
> > >
> > > -Scott
> > >
> > >
> > > > Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 17:53:30 -0700
> > > > From: lfalen at turbonet.com
> > > > To: ngier006 at gmail.com
> > > > CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The GOP War On Women Accelerates
> > > >
> > > > Nick
> > > > Most social issues are not hot button items for me. I am more
> > > > interested
> > > in economic issues. In general though, I favor more freedom for the
> > > individual and less interference by the government. I am nether
> > > strongly pro-choice or pro-life, but tend to be closer to the pro-life
> position.
> > > Abortion should not be used as a form of birth control. In extremely
> > > rare surrmonstances such as the life of the mother, her life should
> > > dominate. I think that some of the positions of some democrats such
> > > as partial term abortions and allowing a baby that survived aan
> > > attempted abortion is much more extreme. Fortunately that is a
> minority opinion even for democrats.
> > > >
> > > > I am not aware of the legislation you mentioned, but I doubt that
> > > > there
> > > is any such thing as justifiable rape.
> > > > Roger
> > > > -----Original message-----
> > > > From: Nicholas Gier ngier006 at gmail.com
> > > > Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 10:26:45 -0700
> > > > To: lfalen lfalen at turbonet.com
> > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The GOP War On Women Accelerates
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Roger,
> > > > >
> > > > > Where do you stand on the extreme, no exceptions GOP plank on
> > > abortion? As
> > > > > a local GOP leader you should tell us what you believe.
> > > > >
> > > > > And do you support Ryan after he teamed up with Akin in
> > > > > proposing a
> > > bill
> > > > > with "justifiable rape" in it, which is what Akin said he meant
> > > > > when he said "legitimate rape." Fortunately the language was
> > > > > rejected. Ryan and Akin are two peas in a pod with regard to
> social issues.
> > > > >
> > > > > Inquiring mind wish to know.
> > > > >
> > > > > Nick
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 10:12 AM, lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com>
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > The Republicans want him to drop out. His opponent wants him
> > > > > > to stay
> > > in.
> > > > > > Apparently both sides think he will be easy to beat. The rumor
> > > > > > has
> > > it that
> > > > > > Mccaskill's backers funneled a lot of money into his campaign
> > > > > > in the primary.
> > > > > > Roger
> > > > > > -----Original message-----
> > > > > > From: Art Deco art.deco.studios at gmail.com
> > > > > > Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 06:11:15 -0700
> > > > > > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > > > Subject: [Vision2020] The GOP War On Women Accelerates
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > V
> > > > > > > [image: The New York Times] <http://www.nytimes.com/>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > <
> > > > > >
> > > http://www.nytimes.com/adx/bin/adx_click.html?type=goto&opzn&page=ww
> > > wnytimes.com/printer-friendly&pos=Position1&sn2=336c557e/4f3dd5d2&sn
> > > 1=a36510e4/68ad5fe5&camp=FSL2012_ArticleTools_120x60_1787508c_nyt5&a
> > > d=RubySparks_120x60_June25_NoText&goto=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Efoxsearchl
> > > ight%2Ecom%2Frubysparks
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ------------------------------ August 21, 2012 Akin
> > > > > > > Controversy Stirs Up Abortion Issue in Campaign By JENNIFER
> > > > > > > STEINHAUER<
> > > > > >
> > > http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/s/jennife
> > > r_steinhauer/index.html
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > WASHINGTON — As an orator, Representative Todd Akin<ttp://
> > > > > >
> > > topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/a/todd_akin/inde
> > > x.html?inline=nyt-per
> > > > > > >of
> > > > > > > Missouri may stand out for his clumsiness. But as a
> legislator, Mr.
> > > > > > > Akin
> > > > > > > has a record on abortion that is largely indistinguishable
> > > > > > >from
> > > those of
> > > > > > > most of his Republican House colleagues, who have viewed
> > > restricting
> > > > > > > abortion rights as one of their top priorities.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That agenda — largely eclipsed for two years by a protracted
> > > > > > > fiscal
> > > > > > crisis
> > > > > > > and the fight over how to manage the federal deficit — has
> > > > > > > wedged
> > > its
> > > > > > way,
> > > > > > > for now at least, to the center of the 2012 campaign. It is
> > > focusing
> > > > > > > attention on an issue that helped earn Mitt Romney<
> > > > > >
> > > http://elections.nytimes.com/2012/primaries/candidates/mitt-romney?i
> > > nline=nyt-per
> > > > > > >,
> > > > > > > the presumptive Republican presidential nominee, a
> > > > > > >reputation as a flip-flopper, threatening the Republican
> > > > > > >quest for control of the
> > > Senate,
> > > > > > > and leaving Representative Paul D.
> > > > > > > Ryan<
> > > > > >
> > > http://elections.nytimes.com/2012/candidates/paul-ryan?inline=nyt-pe
> > > r>of
> > > > > > > Wisconsin, Mr. Romney’s vice-presidential pick, in the
> > > uncomfortable
> > > > > > > position of distinguishing himself from Mr. Akin, with whom
> > > > > > > he has
> > > often
> > > > > > > concurred.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It is an agenda that has enjoyed the support of House
> > > > > > > leaders,
> > > including
> > > > > > > Speaker John A. Boehner and Representative Eric Cantor, the
> > > majority
> > > > > > > leader, who has called anti-abortion measures “obviously
> > > > > > > very
> > > important
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > terms of the priorities we set out initially in our pledge
> > > > > > > to
> > > America.”
> > > > > > It
> > > > > > > became inextricably linked to the near-shutdown of the
> > > > > > > federal
> > > government
> > > > > > > last year when an agreement to keep the government open was
> > > reached only
> > > > > > > after it was linked to a measure restricting abortion in the
> > > District of
> > > > > > > Columbia.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Even as Congressional Republicans, including Mr. Boehner,
> > > denounced Mr.
> > > > > > > Akin’s remark that victims of “legitimate rape” were able to
> > > somehow
> > > > > > > prevent pregnancy, an agenda to roll back abortion is one
> > > > > > > that
> > > House
> > > > > > > Republicans have largely moved in step with.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In an anti-abortion measure once sponsored by Mr. Akin, Mr.
> > > > > > > Ryan
> > > and
> > > > > > scores
> > > > > > > of other Republican lawmakers, an exemption was made for
> > > > > > > victims of “forcible” rape, though that word was later removed.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > *On Tuesday, Republicans approved platform language for next
> > > > > > > week’s nominating convention that calls for a constitutional
> > > > > > > amendment
> > > outlawing
> > > > > > > abortion with no explicit exceptions for cases of rape or
> incest.
> > > That
> > > > > > is a
> > > > > > > view more restrictive than Mr. Romney’s, who has said that
> > > > > > > he
> > > supports
> > > > > > > exceptions to allow abortions in cases of rape. *
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > * *Mr. Ryan’s more conservative views, which have been
> > > > > > > reflected
> > > in votes
> > > > > > > that would restrict family planning financing overseas, cut
> > > > > > > off all
> > > > > > federal
> > > > > > > funds to Planned Parenthood and repeal President Obama’s
> > > > > > > health
> > > care
> > > > > > > law<
> > > > > >
> > > http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/health/diseasesconditionsandhealt
> > > htopics/health_insurance_and_managed_care/health_care_reform/index.h
> > > tml?inline=nyt-classifier
> > > > > > >,
> > > > > > > have come into sharp relief as Mr. Akin struggles for his
> > > political life.
> > > > > > > Mr. Akin and Mr. Ryan each have voted in this Congress for
> > > > > > > 10 abortion-restricting measures as well as those that
> > > > > > > limited other
> > > family
> > > > > > > planning services.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Both Mr. Ryan and Mr. Romney have earned praise for their
> > > positions from
> > > > > > > the National Right to Life group and other anti-abortion
> > > organizations.
> > > > > > > “The right-to-life Romney/Ryan ticket is now complete,”
> > > > > > > wrote
> > > Barbara
> > > > > > Lyons
> > > > > > > and Sue Armacost, executive director and legislative
> > > > > > > director for
> > > > > > Wisconsin
> > > > > > > Right to Life, on the organization’s Web site.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It is a legislative theme Democrats plan to highlight, even
> > > > > > > as
> > > House
> > > > > > > Republicans try to keep the focus on economic issues.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > “All you need to know is that the House Republicans were
> > > > > > > willing
> > > to shut
> > > > > > > down the government rather than fund Planned Parenthood,”
> > > > > > > said Representative Nancy Pelosi, the House Democratic
> > > > > > > leader, in an
> > > e-mail on
> > > > > > > Tuesday. “This is in keeping with their efforts — whether
> > > > > > > it’s
> > > > > > Congressman
> > > > > > > Akin or Chairman Ryan or others — to deny investments in
> > > > > > > critical
> > > women’s
> > > > > > > health services, weaken the definition of rape, and take
> > > > > > > away
> > > access to
> > > > > > > preventive care like cervical and breast cancer screenings.”
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The House Republican agenda has troubled the half-dozen or
> > > > > > > so
> > > Republican
> > > > > > > House members whose views differ from those of their
> colleagues.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > “I have time and again spoken out against this to
> > > > > > > leadership,” said Representative Robert Dold of Illinois,
> > > > > > > who is in a tough
> > > re-election
> > > > > > > battle. “I’ve tried to talk to them about the issues that we
> > > > > > > ought
> > > to be
> > > > > > > moving forward on, like out-of-control spending.”
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mr. Dold has voted in favor of half of the abortion
> > > > > > > restriction
> > > measures
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > this Congress, far fewer than most of his colleagues. “There
> > > > > > > is no
> > > > > > question
> > > > > > > that there are times when I may disagree with a vote that’s
> > > brought to
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > floor,” he said in an interview, “and the majority of my
> > > > > > > Republican colleagues, but that is just part of what we deal
> with every day.”
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There have long been lawmakers, like Mr. Akin, whose main
> > > legislative
> > > > > > > agenda centers on the abortion issue. They got a boost after
> > > > > > > the
> > > 2010
> > > > > > > election when a large group of conservative members joined
> them.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mr. Romney’s views align with that of the Mormon Church,
> > > > > > > which
> > > opposes
> > > > > > > abortion except in cases of rape and incest or when the life
> > > > > > > of
> > > the woman
> > > > > > > is in danger. He has said he is personally opposed to
> > > > > > > abortion; as
> > > a
> > > > > > Mormon
> > > > > > > bishop in the 1980s he attempted to talk a congregant out of
> > > terminating
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > pregnancy after doctors advised her to do so because of a
> > > potentially
> > > > > > > lethal blood clot.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > But abortion has proved to be a politically volatile topic
> > > > > > > for Mr> > > > Romney, whose evolving views have disappointed
> > > > > > > liberals and stirred
> > > distrust
> > > > > > among
> > > > > > > conservatives.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In 1994, when he challenged Senator Edward M. Kennedy, Mr.
> > > > > > > Romney
> > > said he
> > > > > > > would “not force our beliefs on others on that matter.” In
> > > > > > > 2002,
> > > as a
> > > > > > > candidate for governor, he claimed to support “the
> > > > > > > substance” of
> > > Roe v.
> > > > > > > Wade. By 2005, though, when he was beginning to consider a
> > > presidential
> > > > > > > run, he had reversed course and described himself as a
> > > > > > > “pro-life
> > > governor
> > > > > > > in a pro-choice state.” Now, as a presidential candidate, he
> > > refers to
> > > > > > > himself as solidly “pro-life.”
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Aides to Mr. Romney declined to say on Tuesday whether he
> > > > > > > would
> > > call on
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > convention delegates to reconsider their position on abortion.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Reince Priebus, the chairman of the Republican National
> > > > > > > Committee,
> > > tried
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > deflect questions on behalf of Mr. Romney, saying on Fox
> > > > > > > News that
> > > “this
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > the platform of the Republican Party<
> > > > > >
> > > http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/r/
> > > republican_party/index.html?inline=nyt-org
> > > > > > >;
> > > > > > > it is not the platform of Mitt Romney.”
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The idea of outlawing any exceptions for abortion is not new
> > > > > > > in
> > > American
> > > > > > > political discourse or in legislation, nor are proposals to
> > > > > > > narrow
> > > the
> > > > > > > definition of rape to distinguish between what some call
> > > > > > > “forcible
> > > rape”
> > > > > > > and cases involving statutory rape or even some types of date
> rape.
> > > > > > > Anti-abortion activists have long been concerned that women
> > > > > > > would
> > > falsely
> > > > > > > claim to have been raped to gain an exemption to terminate a
> > > pregnancy.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Historians and other experts on abortion politics say the
> > > no-exceptions
> > > > > > > idea became part of the debate virtually as soon as Roe v.
> > > > > > > Wade
> > > legalized
> > > > > > > abortion in 1973. “It has deep roots,” said Donald
> > > > > > > Critchlow, a
> > > historian
> > > > > > > at Arizona State University who has studied abortion
> > > > > > > politics. He
> > > added,
> > > > > > > “It’s appealing to segments within the Republican Party to
> > > > > > > show
> > > that
> > > > > > you’re
> > > > > > > pro-life.”
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Susan Cohen, director of government affairs for the
> > > > > > > Guttmacher
> > > > > > Institute, a
> > > > > > > research group in Washington that supports abortion rights,
> > > > > > > said
> > > the
> > > > > > > no-exceptions idea is “not new and it’s not fringe.”
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > “It is something that has been part of mainstream
> > > > > > > anti-abortion
> > > > > > movement,”
> > > > > > > she said. “The record is replete with evidence of the fact
> > > > > > > that
> > > there was
> > > > > > > this no-exceptions attitude, and of course this makes
> > > > > > > logical
> > > sense from
> > > > > > > the perspective of people who believe an embryo should have
> > > > > > > the
> > > same
> > > > > > legal
> > > > > > > status as you and I do.”
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In the 1992 election, the Republican Party included in its
> > > > > > > platform language opposing abortion, allowing no exceptions
> > > > > > > and calling for
> > > a
> > > > > > > constitutional amendment to make abortion illegal. Similar
> > > > > > > language opposing any exceptions was included in 2000 and
> > > > > > > 2004, even though
> > > George
> > > > > > > W. Bush also supported outlawing abortion except in cases of
> > > > > > > rape,
> > > > > > incest,
> > > > > > > or when the life of the woman was in danger.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Four years ago, the Republican Party adopted a platform
> > > > > > > seeking an unconditional ban on abortion, though its
> > > > > > > nominee, Senator John
> > > McCain,
> > > > > > had
> > > > > > > urged the party in the past to allow certain exceptions.
> > > > > > > After this
> > > > > > year’s
> > > > > > > abortion plank language was approved with little debate, the
> > > chairman of
> > > > > > > the platform committee, Gov. Bob McDonnell of Virginia,
> > > > > > > praised the committee for “affirming our respect for human
> life.”
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Pam Belluck and Michael Cooper contributed reporting from New
> York.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
> > > > > > > art.deco.studios at gmail.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > =======================================================
> > > > > > List services made available by First Step Internet, serving
> > > > > > the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > > > > > http://www.fsr.net
> > > > > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com <Vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > > > > =======================================================
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > =======================================================
> > > > List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the
> > > > communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > > > http://www.fsr.net
> > > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com <Vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > > =======================================================
> > >
> > > =======================================================
> > > List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the
> > > communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > > http://www.fsr.net
> > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com <Vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > =======================================================
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the
> communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
>
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
>
--
Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
art.deco.studios at gmail.com
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