[Vision2020] The GOP War On Women Accelerates
Andy Boyd
moscowrecycling at turbonet.com
Fri Aug 24 11:26:05 PDT 2012
Romney's new energy plan does not mention climate change once.
Creates lots of jobs and will have us producing all our own energy by 2020.
Do you think this can be done without destroying the planet?
Andy Boyd
-----Original Message-----
From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of lfalen
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 10:49 AM
To: Nicholas Gier; Joe Campbell
Cc: vision2020
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The GOP War On Women Accelerates
Nick
I resent your Don't pretend statement. I do not watch TV and do not follow what the legislature is doing on the internet. I also do not read long posts on the vision, such as a lot of yours and Wayne's. When I had a computer hooked up to the internet, I printed them off to read. Since I no longer have a printer hooked to the internet, I skip them. I read a lot of magazines. Those that relate to politics are National Review, Reason, Time, Newsweek, The Week, Newsmax and too some extent Skeptical Inquirer. While I do not read them word for word, I do not recall Ryan's bill on abortion being discussed. I respectfully answered your questions. If you continue this line of bullshit, I will not respond to any of your posts.Ths may be a high priority to you, but not nesearily to everyone else.
Your arguments on the trimester start of life hae some merit. So do the the arguments of those that argue it starts at conception.
I agree with Scott that a baby outside the womb should be protected, but the procedure for partial term abortion is atrocious and macabre. If that does not turn your stomach, I don't kow what will. If that does not bother you at least a little bit, you should get down off your moral perch.
Joe's statements are reasonable and so are Donovan's. I do not agree with Andy that Rommey/Ryan will push to make abortion illegal regardless of circumstances. If they do I would disagree with them, but it is not a make or brake thing.
I do not understand the terms legitimate rape, justiciable rape and forceable rape. I would think that by definition all rape is forceable. The only exception I can think is if a person has sex with someone who has passed out due to being drunk I quess you could call that passive rape. What has been overlooked here is the rights of the unborn. They are defenseless and bear no no responsibility for their circumstance, unlike everyone else involved except rape victims.
While important, abortion and gay marriage are secondary issues. The important issues are the economy and jobs. Lets get our priorities in order and not get bogged down in secondary issues.
Keep your eye on the UI Administration. The 2% raise is misleading. It is for teaching only. CALS's mission involves a lot of research. The 2% applies to only that portion that is teaching. Those that do not teach get nothing. While faculty and staff have been reduced, CALS just hired two new secretaries. The folks that got the Climate Change grant have wasted a lot of money by buying 5 new ventricles.
Again lets get our priorities straight and concentrate on the economy and jobs.
Roger
-----Original message-----
From: Nicholas Gier ngier006 at gmail.com
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 11:08:04 -0700
To: Joe Campbell philosopher.joe at gmail.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The GOP War On Women Accelerates
> Hi Roger,
>
> Don't pretend that you don't know about the extreme abortion
> legislation and Ryan and Akin cosponsored with the phrase "justifiable
> rape" in it. I repeat my question to you: do you support a V-P
> candidate with such radical views? If Akin has to go, so does Ryan,
> and so does every Republican who supports a GOP plank that does not exempt rape--legitimate or otherwise.
>
> Hi Joe,
>
> It's very rare that I disagree with you, but abortion is a profound
> moral issue that philosophers have an obligation to address so as to
> inform those who make the law. And, as I have repeatedly done on this
> list, strong arguments can be made for the pro-choice position.
>
> Ironically, Paul Ryan now says that he follows Thomas Aquinas and not
> Ayn Rand. Aquinas, however, supported canon law, which held that
> abortion was permissible through the first trimester. (This was not
> changed until 1917.) His doctrine of the soul, drawn from Aristotle,
> actually was in line with Roe v. Wade. Our moral, legal, and
> religious tradition always supported "choice" in early pregnancy and
> the facts of fetal physiology support that tradition.
>
> Ayn Rand believed in woman's right to choose and I believe that should
> be the libertarian position as well.
>
> On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 6:19 AM, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > Roger and other conservatives oversimplify the abortion debate. The
> > debate isn't the philosophical debate Roger tries to engage in:
> > whether or not abortion is morally permissible. That is a debate
> > about which no consensus will ever be reached. It doesn't have the
> > kind of clarity needed for matters of the law.
> >
> > The real is really a matter of individual choice and religious
> > freedom. Do Roger or Akin or Ryan etc. have the right to settle a
> > very complex and personal issue for everyone else? The answer to
> > that is clearly 'No' and one would have to be pretty arrogant to think otherwise.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Aug 22, 2012, at 10:21 PM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Well I wouldn't call myself a Democrat, but I am definitely extreme
> > on abortion rights:
> >
> > - Whether or not to abort a pregnancy at ANY time during the
> > pregnancy for ANY reason is the choice of the woman
> > - In cases where the pregnancy threatens the life of the pregnant
> > woman, she should not be forced against her will to terminate the
> > pregnancy
> > - A baby completely outside the womb of its mother should be treated
> > / protected
> >
> > As far as your condition that 'abortion should not be used as a form
> > of birth control', why not? There is no form of birth control that
> > is 100% effective at preventing pregnancy. Thus, when whatever
> > non-perfect (pick any one) birth control being used has failed, then
> > abortion is a perfectly justifiable reason to terminate a pregnancy
> > that was unintended and unwanted in the first place. You know what might be a good idea Roger?
> > Maybe men should just stop knocking up women against their wishes
> > and there would be far fewer unwanted / unintended pregnancies that
> > end up being aborted.
> >
> > Google up 'Paul Ryan forcible rape' and let us know your thoughts.
> > My guess is that these jokers don't want a 'rape exception' to
> > abortion bans because then women might 'lie about being raped' to
> > get an abortion for their unwanted pregnancy. With a 'rape
> > exception', the abortion ban will lack the necessary teeth in it to
> > allow state and local governments to force these women to carry
> > their unwanted pregnancies to term against their will.
> >
> > -Scott
> >
> >
> > > Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 17:53:30 -0700
> > > From: lfalen at turbonet.com
> > > To: ngier006 at gmail.com
> > > CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The GOP War On Women Accelerates
> > >
> > > Nick
> > > Most social issues are not hot button items for me. I am more
> > > interested
> > in economic issues. In general though, I favor more freedom for the
> > individual and less interference by the government. I am nether
> > strongly pro-choice or pro-life, but tend to be closer to the pro-life position.
> > Abortion should not be used as a form of birth control. In extremely
> > rare surrmonstances such as the life of the mother, her life should
> > dominate. I think that some of the positions of some democrats such
> > as partial term abortions and allowing a baby that survived aan
> > attempted abortion is much more extreme. Fortunately that is a minority opinion even for democrats.
> > >
> > > I am not aware of the legislation you mentioned, but I doubt that
> > > there
> > is any such thing as justifiable rape.
> > > Roger
> > > -----Original message-----
> > > From: Nicholas Gier ngier006 at gmail.com
> > > Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 10:26:45 -0700
> > > To: lfalen lfalen at turbonet.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The GOP War On Women Accelerates
> > >
> > > > Hi Roger,
> > > >
> > > > Where do you stand on the extreme, no exceptions GOP plank on
> > abortion? As
> > > > a local GOP leader you should tell us what you believe.
> > > >
> > > > And do you support Ryan after he teamed up with Akin in
> > > > proposing a
> > bill
> > > > with "justifiable rape" in it, which is what Akin said he meant
> > > > when he said "legitimate rape." Fortunately the language was
> > > > rejected. Ryan and Akin are two peas in a pod with regard to social issues.
> > > >
> > > > Inquiring mind wish to know.
> > > >
> > > > Nick
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 10:12 AM, lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > The Republicans want him to drop out. His opponent wants him
> > > > > to stay
> > in.
> > > > > Apparently both sides think he will be easy to beat. The rumor
> > > > > has
> > it that
> > > > > Mccaskill's backers funneled a lot of money into his campaign
> > > > > in the primary.
> > > > > Roger
> > > > > -----Original message-----
> > > > > From: Art Deco art.deco.studios at gmail.com
> > > > > Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 06:11:15 -0700
> > > > > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > > Subject: [Vision2020] The GOP War On Women Accelerates
> > > > >
> > > > > > V
> > > > > > [image: The New York Times] <http://www.nytimes.com/>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > <
> > > > >
> > http://www.nytimes.com/adx/bin/adx_click.html?type=goto&opzn&page=ww
> > wnytimes.com/printer-friendly&pos=Position1&sn2=336c557e/4f3dd5d2&sn
> > 1=a36510e4/68ad5fe5&camp=FSL2012_ArticleTools_120x60_1787508c_nyt5&a
> > d=RubySparks_120x60_June25_NoText&goto=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Efoxsearchl
> > ight%2Ecom%2Frubysparks
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ------------------------------ August 21, 2012 Akin
> > > > > > Controversy Stirs Up Abortion Issue in Campaign By JENNIFER
> > > > > > STEINHAUER<
> > > > >
> > http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/s/jennife
> > r_steinhauer/index.html
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > WASHINGTON — As an orator, Representative Todd Akin<ttp://
> > > > >
> > topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/a/todd_akin/inde
> > x.html?inline=nyt-per
> > > > > >of
> > > > > > Missouri may stand out for his clumsiness. But as a legislator, Mr.
> > > > > > Akin
> > > > > > has a record on abortion that is largely indistinguishable
> > > > > >from
> > those of
> > > > > > most of his Republican House colleagues, who have viewed
> > restricting
> > > > > > abortion rights as one of their top priorities.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That agenda — largely eclipsed for two years by a protracted
> > > > > > fiscal
> > > > > crisis
> > > > > > and the fight over how to manage the federal deficit — has
> > > > > > wedged
> > its
> > > > > way,
> > > > > > for now at least, to the center of the 2012 campaign. It is
> > focusing
> > > > > > attention on an issue that helped earn Mitt Romney<
> > > > >
> > http://elections.nytimes.com/2012/primaries/candidates/mitt-romney?i
> > nline=nyt-per
> > > > > >,
> > > > > > the presumptive Republican presidential nominee, a
> > > > > >reputation as a flip-flopper, threatening the Republican
> > > > > >quest for control of the
> > Senate,
> > > > > > and leaving Representative Paul D.
> > > > > > Ryan<
> > > > >
> > http://elections.nytimes.com/2012/candidates/paul-ryan?inline=nyt-pe
> > r>of
> > > > > > Wisconsin, Mr. Romney’s vice-presidential pick, in the
> > uncomfortable
> > > > > > position of distinguishing himself from Mr. Akin, with whom
> > > > > > he has
> > often
> > > > > > concurred.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is an agenda that has enjoyed the support of House
> > > > > > leaders,
> > including
> > > > > > Speaker John A. Boehner and Representative Eric Cantor, the
> > majority
> > > > > > leader, who has called anti-abortion measures “obviously
> > > > > > very
> > important
> > > > > in
> > > > > > terms of the priorities we set out initially in our pledge
> > > > > > to
> > America.”
> > > > > It
> > > > > > became inextricably linked to the near-shutdown of the
> > > > > > federal
> > government
> > > > > > last year when an agreement to keep the government open was
> > reached only
> > > > > > after it was linked to a measure restricting abortion in the
> > District of
> > > > > > Columbia.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Even as Congressional Republicans, including Mr. Boehner,
> > denounced Mr.
> > > > > > Akin’s remark that victims of “legitimate rape” were able to
> > somehow
> > > > > > prevent pregnancy, an agenda to roll back abortion is one
> > > > > > that
> > House
> > > > > > Republicans have largely moved in step with.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In an anti-abortion measure once sponsored by Mr. Akin, Mr.
> > > > > > Ryan
> > and
> > > > > scores
> > > > > > of other Republican lawmakers, an exemption was made for
> > > > > > victims of “forcible” rape, though that word was later removed.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > *On Tuesday, Republicans approved platform language for next
> > > > > > week’s nominating convention that calls for a constitutional
> > > > > > amendment
> > outlawing
> > > > > > abortion with no explicit exceptions for cases of rape or incest.
> > That
> > > > > is a
> > > > > > view more restrictive than Mr. Romney’s, who has said that
> > > > > > he
> > supports
> > > > > > exceptions to allow abortions in cases of rape. *
> > > > > >
> > > > > > * *Mr. Ryan’s more conservative views, which have been
> > > > > > reflected
> > in votes
> > > > > > that would restrict family planning financing overseas, cut
> > > > > > off all
> > > > > federal
> > > > > > funds to Planned Parenthood and repeal President Obama’s
> > > > > > health
> > care
> > > > > > law<
> > > > >
> > http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/health/diseasesconditionsandhealt
> > htopics/health_insurance_and_managed_care/health_care_reform/index.h
> > tml?inline=nyt-classifier
> > > > > >,
> > > > > > have come into sharp relief as Mr. Akin struggles for his
> > political life.
> > > > > > Mr. Akin and Mr. Ryan each have voted in this Congress for
> > > > > > 10 abortion-restricting measures as well as those that
> > > > > > limited other
> > family
> > > > > > planning services.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Both Mr. Ryan and Mr. Romney have earned praise for their
> > positions from
> > > > > > the National Right to Life group and other anti-abortion
> > organizations.
> > > > > > “The right-to-life Romney/Ryan ticket is now complete,”
> > > > > > wrote
> > Barbara
> > > > > Lyons
> > > > > > and Sue Armacost, executive director and legislative
> > > > > > director for
> > > > > Wisconsin
> > > > > > Right to Life, on the organization’s Web site.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is a legislative theme Democrats plan to highlight, even
> > > > > > as
> > House
> > > > > > Republicans try to keep the focus on economic issues.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > “All you need to know is that the House Republicans were
> > > > > > willing
> > to shut
> > > > > > down the government rather than fund Planned Parenthood,”
> > > > > > said Representative Nancy Pelosi, the House Democratic
> > > > > > leader, in an
> > e-mail on
> > > > > > Tuesday. “This is in keeping with their efforts — whether
> > > > > > it’s
> > > > > Congressman
> > > > > > Akin or Chairman Ryan or others — to deny investments in
> > > > > > critical
> > women’s
> > > > > > health services, weaken the definition of rape, and take
> > > > > > away
> > access to
> > > > > > preventive care like cervical and breast cancer screenings.”
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The House Republican agenda has troubled the half-dozen or
> > > > > > so
> > Republican
> > > > > > House members whose views differ from those of their colleagues.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > “I have time and again spoken out against this to
> > > > > > leadership,” said Representative Robert Dold of Illinois,
> > > > > > who is in a tough
> > re-election
> > > > > > battle. “I’ve tried to talk to them about the issues that we
> > > > > > ought
> > to be
> > > > > > moving forward on, like out-of-control spending.”
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mr. Dold has voted in favor of half of the abortion
> > > > > > restriction
> > measures
> > > > > in
> > > > > > this Congress, far fewer than most of his colleagues. “There
> > > > > > is no
> > > > > question
> > > > > > that there are times when I may disagree with a vote that’s
> > brought to
> > > > > the
> > > > > > floor,” he said in an interview, “and the majority of my
> > > > > > Republican colleagues, but that is just part of what we deal with every day.”
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There have long been lawmakers, like Mr. Akin, whose main
> > legislative
> > > > > > agenda centers on the abortion issue. They got a boost after
> > > > > > the
> > 2010
> > > > > > election when a large group of conservative members joined them.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mr. Romney’s views align with that of the Mormon Church,
> > > > > > which
> > opposes
> > > > > > abortion except in cases of rape and incest or when the life
> > > > > > of
> > the woman
> > > > > > is in danger. He has said he is personally opposed to
> > > > > > abortion; as
> > a
> > > > > Mormon
> > > > > > bishop in the 1980s he attempted to talk a congregant out of
> > terminating
> > > > > a
> > > > > > pregnancy after doctors advised her to do so because of a
> > potentially
> > > > > > lethal blood clot.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But abortion has proved to be a politically volatile topic
> > > > > > for Mr> > > > Romney, whose evolving views have disappointed
> > > > > > liberals and stirred
> > distrust
> > > > > among
> > > > > > conservatives.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In 1994, when he challenged Senator Edward M. Kennedy, Mr.
> > > > > > Romney
> > said he
> > > > > > would “not force our beliefs on others on that matter.” In
> > > > > > 2002,
> > as a
> > > > > > candidate for governor, he claimed to support “the
> > > > > > substance” of
> > Roe v.
> > > > > > Wade. By 2005, though, when he was beginning to consider a
> > presidential
> > > > > > run, he had reversed course and described himself as a
> > > > > > “pro-life
> > governor
> > > > > > in a pro-choice state.” Now, as a presidential candidate, he
> > refers to
> > > > > > himself as solidly “pro-life.”
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Aides to Mr. Romney declined to say on Tuesday whether he
> > > > > > would
> > call on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > convention delegates to reconsider their position on abortion.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Reince Priebus, the chairman of the Republican National
> > > > > > Committee,
> > tried
> > > > > to
> > > > > > deflect questions on behalf of Mr. Romney, saying on Fox
> > > > > > News that
> > “this
> > > > > is
> > > > > > the platform of the Republican Party<
> > > > >
> > http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/r/
> > republican_party/index.html?inline=nyt-org
> > > > > >;
> > > > > > it is not the platform of Mitt Romney.”
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The idea of outlawing any exceptions for abortion is not new
> > > > > > in
> > American
> > > > > > political discourse or in legislation, nor are proposals to
> > > > > > narrow
> > the
> > > > > > definition of rape to distinguish between what some call
> > > > > > “forcible
> > rape”
> > > > > > and cases involving statutory rape or even some types of date rape.
> > > > > > Anti-abortion activists have long been concerned that women
> > > > > > would
> > falsely
> > > > > > claim to have been raped to gain an exemption to terminate a
> > pregnancy.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Historians and other experts on abortion politics say the
> > no-exceptions
> > > > > > idea became part of the debate virtually as soon as Roe v.
> > > > > > Wade
> > legalized
> > > > > > abortion in 1973. “It has deep roots,” said Donald
> > > > > > Critchlow, a
> > historian
> > > > > > at Arizona State University who has studied abortion
> > > > > > politics. He
> > added,
> > > > > > “It’s appealing to segments within the Republican Party to
> > > > > > show
> > that
> > > > > you’re
> > > > > > pro-life.”
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Susan Cohen, director of government affairs for the
> > > > > > Guttmacher
> > > > > Institute, a
> > > > > > research group in Washington that supports abortion rights,
> > > > > > said
> > the
> > > > > > no-exceptions idea is “not new and it’s not fringe.”
> > > > > >
> > > > > > “It is something that has been part of mainstream
> > > > > > anti-abortion
> > > > > movement,”
> > > > > > she said. “The record is replete with evidence of the fact
> > > > > > that
> > there was
> > > > > > this no-exceptions attitude, and of course this makes
> > > > > > logical
> > sense from
> > > > > > the perspective of people who believe an embryo should have
> > > > > > the
> > same
> > > > > legal
> > > > > > status as you and I do.”
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In the 1992 election, the Republican Party included in its
> > > > > > platform language opposing abortion, allowing no exceptions
> > > > > > and calling for
> > a
> > > > > > constitutional amendment to make abortion illegal. Similar
> > > > > > language opposing any exceptions was included in 2000 and
> > > > > > 2004, even though
> > George
> > > > > > W. Bush also supported outlawing abortion except in cases of
> > > > > > rape,
> > > > > incest,
> > > > > > or when the life of the woman was in danger.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Four years ago, the Republican Party adopted a platform
> > > > > > seeking an unconditional ban on abortion, though its
> > > > > > nominee, Senator John
> > McCain,
> > > > > had
> > > > > > urged the party in the past to allow certain exceptions.
> > > > > > After this
> > > > > year’s
> > > > > > abortion plank language was approved with little debate, the
> > chairman of
> > > > > > the platform committee, Gov. Bob McDonnell of Virginia,
> > > > > > praised the committee for “affirming our respect for human life.”
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Pam Belluck and Michael Cooper contributed reporting from New York.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
> > > > > > art.deco.studios at gmail.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > =======================================================
> > > > > List services made available by First Step Internet, serving
> > > > > the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > > > > http://www.fsr.net
> > > > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com <Vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > > > =======================================================
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > =======================================================
> > > List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the
> > > communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > > http://www.fsr.net
> > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com <Vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > =======================================================
> >
> > =======================================================
> > List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the
> > communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > http://www.fsr.net
> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com <Vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > =======================================================
> >
> >
>
>
=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
More information about the Vision2020
mailing list