[Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting . . .
Wayne Price
bear at moscow.com
Sun Aug 12 18:50:04 PDT 2012
Better to be judged by 12 than to be carried by 6.
On Aug 12, 2012, at 6:36 PM, Paul Rumelhart wrote:
>
> I suspect that someone unstable enough to shoot up a cafe might not
> have any qualms about carrying a concealed weapon without a permit
> despite the fact that it's illegal. It's not like shooting people
> is legal, either.
>
> Also, in my opinion, the quote "I don't know that there's anything
> you can do in these situations. We can't treat him like a child,
> he's got his own life to live and he can make his own mistakes no
> matter how horrific those mistakes turn out to be" is really at the
> center of this debate. Personal responsibility vs. the "nanny state".
>
> Do we want to be stripped and strapped to our seats when we fly, or
> do we want to live with a little more risk? Do we want all tools
> that fire projectiles or have sharp edges made unavailable, and safe
> Playskool toys available instead?
>
> Paul
>
> On 08/12/2012 01:01 PM, Tom Hansen wrote:
>> Very, very possibly . . .
>>
>> Since he could not carry his weapon concealed, he may possibly have
>> been arrested earlir for carrying a concealed weapon without a
>> permit.
>>
>> Seeya round town, Moscow.
>>
>> Tom Hansen
>> Moscow, Idaho
>>
>> "We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students. The
>> college students are not very active in local elections (thank
>> goodness!)."
>>
>> - Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
>>
>>
>> On Aug 12, 2012, at 12:56 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Do you think his not having a concealed handgun permit would have
>>> stopped this tragedy? Honest question, not a "zinger".
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> On 08/12/2012 12:28 PM, Tom Hansen wrote:
>>>> Courtesy of the Huffington Post at:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-sugarmann/seattle-mass-shooting-lat_b_1563392.html
>>>>
>>>> -----------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Seattle Mass Shooting Latest by a Concealed Handgun Permit Holder
>>>> Posted: 06/01/2012 3:20 pm
>>>>
>>>> Another day, another mass shooting committed by a private citizen
>>>> legally allowed to carry a concealed, loaded handgun in public.
>>>>
>>>> This time it was 40-year-old Ian Stawicki, who entered a Seattle
>>>> cafe on Wednesday and opened fire, killing four people. He then
>>>> left Cafe Racer, killing another person during a carjacking
>>>> before taking his own life.
>>>>
>>>> The pro-gun reaction to this most recent slaughter by a concealed
>>>> handgun permit holder? That's life.
>>>>
>>>> As pro-gun advocate Dave Workman, a loyal foot soldier in the pro-
>>>> gun publishing and lobbying empire of convicted felon Alan
>>>> Gottlieb explained to local NPR affiliate KUOW:
>>>>
>>>> "I don't know that there's anything you can do in these
>>>> situations. We can't treat him like a child, he's got his own
>>>> life to live and he can make his own mistakes no matter how
>>>> horrific those mistakes turn out to be."
>>>> "Those mistakes" happen all too often. According to a running
>>>> tally maintained by my organization, the Violence Policy Center,
>>>> since May 2007, nearly 450 people have been killed in 334 non-
>>>> self defense incidents by private citizens legally allowed to
>>>> carry concealed handguns.
>>>>
>>>> Not including this week's attack in Seattle, 20 of those
>>>> incidents have been mass shootings of three victims or more,
>>>> resulting in the deaths of 89 innocent victims.
>>>>
>>>> Listed below, they run the gamut from family annihilators to
>>>> workplace shooters, murder-suicides to attempted political
>>>> assassination:
>>>>
>>>> In July 2011, in Texas, Tan Do, 35, opened fire at his son's 11th
>>>> birthday party being held at the Forum Roller World in Grand
>>>> Prairie, Texas, killing the boy's mother and four members of her
>>>> family before taking his own life.
>>>> In June 2011, in Arizona, Carey H. Dyess, 73, went on an hours-
>>>> long shooting rampage in two communities, killing five before
>>>> taking his own life.
>>>> In January 2011, in Arizona, Jared Lee Loughner, 22, opened fire
>>>> at a "Congress on Your Corner" constituent event held by Arizona
>>>> U.S. Representative Gabrielle Giffords outside a Tucson Safeway
>>>> supermarket. Loughner killed six people, including a federal
>>>> judge and a nine-year-old girl, and injured 13, including
>>>> Giffords, who was shot once the face.
>>>> In August 2010, in Connecticut, Omar Thornton, 34, went on a
>>>> shooting rampage at the beer distributorship where he worked,
>>>> killing eight co-workers before taking his own life.
>>>> In June 2010, in Florida, Gerardo Regalado, 38, committed
>>>> Hialeah, Florida's worst mass shooting: killing four women and
>>>> wounding three others at the Yoyito Cafe-Restaurant.
>>>> In March 2010, in Tennessee, Michael Joe Hood, 49, shot and
>>>> killed his sister Susan Hood Binkley, 44, her ex-husband Dale
>>>> Binkley, 42, and their 13-year-old son Jackson Binkley.
>>>> In January 2010, in Virginia, Christopher Speight allegedly shot
>>>> and killed eight people including his sister and her husband,
>>>> their 15-year-old daughter and four-year-old son, as well as two
>>>> teenagers aged 15 and 16.
>>>> In December 2009, in Utah, Justin Matern shot and killed his wife
>>>> and two sons, ages six and four, before turning the gun on himself.
>>>> On Thanksgiving Day 2009, in Florida, Paul Michael Merhige
>>>> allegedly opened fire at his family's Thanksgiving dinner
>>>> shooting six relatives, killing four. The deceased victims were
>>>> his twin sisters (one of whom was pregnant), his 76-year-old
>>>> aunt, and a six-year-old cousin. As he left the scene, Merhige
>>>> was quoted by one witness as saying, "I have been waiting 20
>>>> years for this."
>>>> In November 2009, in North Carolina, William Maxwell shot and
>>>> killed his wife Kathryn and their teenage children Conner and
>>>> Cameron before killing himself.
>>>> In August 2009, in Pennsylvania, George Sodini, 48, opened fire
>>>> at an LA Fitness Center in Collier, Pennsylvania, killing three
>>>> women and wounding nine others before turning the gun on himself.
>>>> In April 2009, in Pennsylvania, white supremacist Richard
>>>> Poplawski shot and killed police officers Stephen Mayhle, Paul
>>>> Sciullo, and Eric Kelly while injuring another.
>>>> In March 2009, in Alabama, Michael McLendon, a self-proclaimed
>>>> survivalist, killed his mother at their family home, beginning a
>>>> shooting rampage that stretched across 24 miles. By the time
>>>> McLendon took his own life in the midst of a police shootout at a
>>>> factory where he had previously worked, he had shot four more
>>>> relatives, including his 74-year-old grandmother, and five
>>>> strangers, including the wife and 18-month-old daughter of a
>>>> local sheriff's deputy.
>>>> In February 2009, in New York, Frank Garcia opened fire with a .
>>>> 40 Glock pistol in the Lakeside Memorial Hospital parking lot in
>>>> Brockport, NY. He had recently been fired by the hospital. He
>>>> shot three people there, killing two, before killing a married
>>>> couple at their home in Canandaigua.
>>>> In September 2008, in Michigan, Troy Brake, 31, shot to death 52-
>>>> year-old Sharmaine Zimmer, her sons, Tyler, 17, and Jeremy, 20,
>>>> and beat to death Jeremy's girlfriend, university student
>>>> Katherine Brown, 18.
>>>> In May 2008, in Virginia, Aaron Poseidon Jackson, 24, shot and
>>>> killed his two children, one-year-old Aaron Neptune Jackson and
>>>> two-year-old Nicole Aaron Jackson, and their mother Latasha
>>>> Nicole Thomas, before taking his own life.
>>>> In March 2008, in Georgia, former substitute teacher Charles
>>>> Johnston entered Doctors Hospital in Columbus, Georgia, carrying
>>>> three handguns: a .32, a 380, and a 9mm. Johnson allegedly killed
>>>> two people in the hospital and a victim in the parking lot.
>>>> In September 2007, in Florida, Guillermo Zarabozo and another man
>>>> hired a charter boat, later killing the boat's crew of four.
>>>> Zarabozo was found guilty of the four murders.
>>>> In July 2007, in Ohio, firefighter Terrance Hough Jr. used a 40
>>>> caliber pistol to shoot and kill neighbor Jacob Feichtner as well
>>>> as Bruce Anderson and Katherine Rosby as a result of a dispute
>>>> over fireworks the three were setting off on the Fourth of July.
>>>> Hough also shot and injured two others. Hough's fellow
>>>> firefighters described him as a "ticking time bomb that finally
>>>> exploded."
>>>> In May 2007, in Idaho, Jason Kenneth Hamilton, a member of the
>>>> white supremacist group Aryan Nation, shot and killed his wife, a
>>>> police officer, and a church sexton, and wounded three others
>>>> before turning the gun on himself in a shooting spree in Moscow,
>>>> Idaho. Hamilton had a concealed handgun permit "despite a
>>>> [previous] domestic violence conviction that should have barred
>>>> him from owning guns."
>>>> Because most states don't release detailed information on crimes
>>>> committed by concealed handgun permit holders, the incidents
>>>> listed above are from news reports. The actual number of lethal
>>>> non-self defense incidents involving private citizens legally
>>>> allowed to carry concealed handguns is most likely far, far higher.
>>>>
>>>> And yet, according to concealed carry advocate Dave Workman,
>>>> concealed handgun permit holder and mass shooter Ian Stawicki had
>>>> "his own life to live."
>>>>
>>>> What about his victims and their families?
>>>>
>>>> -----------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Seeya round town, Moscow.
>>>>
>>>> Tom Hansen
>>>> Moscow, Idaho
>>>>
>>>> "We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students. The
>>>> college students are not very active in local elections (thank
>>>> goodness!)."
>>>>
>>>> - Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Aug 12, 2012, at 12:03 PM, Paul Rumelhart
>>>> <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, pony up your evidence. Since we seem to be so focused on
>>>>> high visibility mass shootings, how many of those turned out
>>>>> worse because of someone with a CWP permit? How many victims in
>>>>> such cases have been shot by someone with a CWP returning fire?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not exactly a gun nut, by the way, I'd never owned a gun
>>>>> before a couple of years ago when I inherited one. I've shot a
>>>>> few, mostly when I was younger. I would just like to talk about
>>>>> this as if I wasn't promoting a side, but no
>>>>> one here has allowed that. Ever since my first post where I
>>>>> wondered what would have happened in Aurora if someone had a
>>>>> concealed firearm on their person I've ran headlong into a wall
>>>>> of (paraphrasing) "a guy with a concealed handgun could in no
>>>>> way, ever, actually be helpful in such a situation".
>>>>>
>>>>> Just to test my understanding, can you conceive of a situation
>>>>> involving a shooter on a killing spree where a responsible
>>>>> person with a concealed weapon might actually have helped things?
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul
>>>>>
>>>>> On 08/12/2012 09:44 AM, Joe Campbell wrote:
>>>>>> I'm not denying anyone anything. It is annoying that no matter
>>>>>> how
>>>>>> carefully I state my points you keep characterizing them as
>>>>>> something
>>>>>> else -- in this case as an example of "rabid anti-gun
>>>>>> rhetoric." I'm
>>>>>> not anti-gun or anti-2nd amendment. In fact, I've taken my son
>>>>>> shooting on several occasions in the past few months, with a
>>>>>> knowledgeable friend who has been offering gun safety lessons
>>>>>> as well.
>>>>>> I don't own a gun for the reasons I've stated: I am far more
>>>>>> likely to
>>>>>> hurt myself or others with it than to help anyone. And so are
>>>>>> you and
>>>>>> so is nearly everyone. That's been my only point. Start
>>>>>> carrying a gun
>>>>>> around to "protect" yourself and you are FAR more likely to do
>>>>>> harm
>>>>>> than good. Yours is a fear-driven attitude with absolutely no
>>>>>> evidence
>>>>>> to support it. Statistics prove this, as well as the fact that
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> can't find one single example of a person saving the day in a
>>>>>> (potential) spree-killing. Not one. Yet you continue to hold on
>>>>>> to the
>>>>>> view that it is not a myth. Mine is a very simple, reasonable,
>>>>>> rational point backed by countless evidence. For you to turn it
>>>>>> into
>>>>>> some type of radical view is egregious but I'll have to get
>>>>>> used to it
>>>>>> since you do this all the time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Aug 12, 2012, at 9:14 AM, Paul Rumelhart
>>>>>> <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I guess there's no point in looking for other examples. Pre-
>>>>>>> planned, well-executed mass-murders just aren't common enough
>>>>>>> to give you those statistics and the percentage of CWP holder
>>>>>>> is (I'm guessing) relatively small, and most of these killing
>>>>>>> sprees happen in gun-free zones where law-abiding permit
>>>>>>> holders wouldn't be armed anyway. This NY Times article
>>>>>>> claims that the Aurora theater banned firearms (even to permit
>>>>>>> holders), which places it in the category of "gun-free zones"
>>>>>>> too.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/21/us/colorado-gun-laws-remain-lax-despite-changes-after-columbine.html?_r=1
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If someone had you pinned down in a dark theater and you
>>>>>>> feared for your life wouldn't you want some way to defend
>>>>>>> yourself? I don't get this rabid anti-gun rhetoric. I notice
>>>>>>> the ban firearms policy didn't stop James Holmes from going on
>>>>>>> his killing spree. Metal detectors wouldn't have helped,
>>>>>>> either, because he left and came back through the exit doors
>>>>>>> which wouldn't have had them anyway. Even a complete firearms
>>>>>>> ban country-wide wouldn't have helped because I doubt he would
>>>>>>> have had qualms about purchasing guns on the black market. It
>>>>>>> might have taken him longer to prepare, is all.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Short of a 1984-esque society, I don't know how you could stop
>>>>>>> this kind of thing. Even if they were successful, this guy
>>>>>>> could have done what he did with a satchel full of Molotov
>>>>>>> cocktails. So why not even the odds and allow people the
>>>>>>> option of personal defense?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Paul
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 08/12/2012 07:10 AM, Joe Campbell wrote:
>>>>>>>> But this is a case in which someone did not use a gun to defend
>>>>>>>> himself against the attacker. According to the Pastor, "I was
>>>>>>>> up there
>>>>>>>> preaching, and I stepped off of there into a chair and on the
>>>>>>>> rail
>>>>>>>> that went around, and I dove right off and grabbed the gun."
>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>> Pastor had concealed weapons training but didn't use a gun to
>>>>>>>> prevent
>>>>>>>> further harm.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Again, I have nothing against training, nothing against guns
>>>>>>>> frankly
>>>>>>>> (though I think it is too easy to get guns in our country).
>>>>>>>> My main
>>>>>>>> point is that guns usually do more harm than good. It is rare
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> having a gun will actually help you and the evidence suggests
>>>>>>>> that if
>>>>>>>> you own a gun you are far more likely to be harmed by it --
>>>>>>>> either by
>>>>>>>> accident or by an assailant taking it from you -- than you
>>>>>>>> are of
>>>>>>>> protecting yourself in an Aurora type situation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 11:45 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com
>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Here's one that happened in Boiling Springs, SC. Some links
>>>>>>>>> to news stories
>>>>>>>>> about it:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.wyff4.com/Deputies-Armed-Man-Kicks-In-Church-Door-During-Service/-/9324882/10075734/-/item/1/-/jjxqgj/-/index.html
>>>>>>>>> http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2012/03/25/Man-with-shotgun-arrested-at-SC-church/UPI-35931332729850/
>>>>>>>>> http://charlotte.cbslocal.com/2012/03/26/sheriff-concealed-weapon-saves-church-from-man-armed-with-shotgun/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> tl;dr version: A man with a CWP, armed, sees a man take a
>>>>>>>>> shotgun out of
>>>>>>>>> the trunk of his car during church services. He warns the
>>>>>>>>> congregation, and
>>>>>>>>> locks the doors. The man kicks in a side door and is
>>>>>>>>> disarmed and wrestled
>>>>>>>>> to the ground by parishioners and held at gunpoint by the
>>>>>>>>> guy with the
>>>>>>>>> concealed weapons permit until authorities arrive. The
>>>>>>>>> shotgun the man had
>>>>>>>>> brought was loaded, and he claims he was going to kidnap the
>>>>>>>>> pastor.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't know if this would have turned into a bloodbath if
>>>>>>>>> that guy hadn't
>>>>>>>>> acted quickly, I doubt anyone does. That's the trouble with
>>>>>>>>> this sort of
>>>>>>>>> request as Gary alluded to. We don't know that this would
>>>>>>>>> have been a
>>>>>>>>> tragedy without his help, but it sure might have been one.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Paul
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 08/11/2012 09:52 PM, Joe Campbell wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well I can't. But you said it was a robbery, not a Columbine
>>>>>>>>> or Aurora type
>>>>>>>>> situation. Certainly you can't be sure he didn't prevent
>>>>>>>>> deaths; can't be
>>>>>>>>> sure their guns were loaded either. You just don't know.
>>>>>>>>> Paul was talking
>>>>>>>>> about an Aurora type situation, where the purpose is spree
>>>>>>>>> killing. Any
>>>>>>>>> examples of someone preventing that from happening with a
>>>>>>>>> handgun? Haven't
>>>>>>>>> heard or seen of one yet.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Aug 11, 2012, at 8:28 PM, "Gary Crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com
>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So, logically speaking, how can you know what was prevented?
>>>>>>>>> How can you
>>>>>>>>> know that one of the bandits wouldn't have started shooting
>>>>>>>>> and not quit
>>>>>>>>> till the incident had assumed tragic proportions? Were did
>>>>>>>>> you acquire this
>>>>>>>>> awesome ability to determine what might and might not have
>>>>>>>>> been?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> g
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From: Joe Campbell
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 3:46 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: Gary Crabtree
>>>>>>>>> Cc: Paul Rumelhart ; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is
>>>>>>>>> Promoting . . .
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well whether someone used a gun and saved the day in a case
>>>>>>>>> like Aurora is
>>>>>>>>> either true or false. If true, when and where?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The case you have is different. Robbers who shot NO ONE and
>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>> subsequently shot by an old man. Not a case of preventing
>>>>>>>>> violence by any
>>>>>>>>> means.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I guess your next suggestion is to get rid of police -- too
>>>>>>>>> much big
>>>>>>>>> government -- and it's everyone for himself.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Aug 11, 2012, at 2:34 PM, "Gary Crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com
>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> CWP holders will be reluctant to pipe up in as much as part
>>>>>>>>> of concealed is
>>>>>>>>> keeping your yap shut and avoiding telling all of Gods
>>>>>>>>> creation that you're
>>>>>>>>> healed. Your opinion is looked on with favor by some to be
>>>>>>>>> sure.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A recent example of an armed citizen exercising his rights
>>>>>>>>> to good effect:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/71-Year-Old-Man-Shoots-Would-Be-Robbers-at-Ocala-Internet-Cafe-Authorities-162941656.html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To say that a guy with a hand gun has never prevented a
>>>>>>>>> massacre is
>>>>>>>>> illogical in as much as who can say what might have happened
>>>>>>>>> had a different
>>>>>>>>> path been followed? In one scenario two goblins are wounded
>>>>>>>>> and taken to
>>>>>>>>> jail. In another, a dozen innocents minding their own
>>>>>>>>> business in a internet
>>>>>>>>> café are senselessly murdered...film at 11:00
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> g
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From: Paul Rumelhart
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 9:57 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is
>>>>>>>>> Promoting . . .
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, you'd have to be damn sure about your line of fire.
>>>>>>>>> Firing in the
>>>>>>>>> middle of a frenzied crowd running panicked for the exits
>>>>>>>>> would surely be
>>>>>>>>> asking for trouble. However, it's my understanding that for
>>>>>>>>> a while during
>>>>>>>>> the shooting the shooter had complete control of the
>>>>>>>>> situation. Anyone
>>>>>>>>> trying to leave was shot. Many people were playing dead in
>>>>>>>>> the hopes they
>>>>>>>>> would be passed over. Firing on the shooter, even if he's
>>>>>>>>> in body armor,
>>>>>>>>> might distract him enough that some people might have made
>>>>>>>>> it to the exits.
>>>>>>>>> Body armor doesn't make you invincible, depending on the
>>>>>>>>> armor and the
>>>>>>>>> caliber of the weapon used you might still have made an
>>>>>>>>> impact, since he'd
>>>>>>>>> still be hit by the blunt force of the bullet. In this
>>>>>>>>> situation, though,
>>>>>>>>> you would probably also have been shot dead shortly after
>>>>>>>>> because he was so
>>>>>>>>> well prepared (vest, leggings, throat protector, groin
>>>>>>>>> protector, and a
>>>>>>>>> helmet with a visor). Who knows? Telling a loved one "when
>>>>>>>>> I start
>>>>>>>>> shooting, RUN for the exit and don't stop" might have worked.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Most other shootings like this we've heard about haven't
>>>>>>>>> involved such a
>>>>>>>>> heavily armored assailant. In fact, quite a few of them
>>>>>>>>> have taken place in
>>>>>>>>> areas where gun use is often restricted, such as in schools
>>>>>>>>> or on university
>>>>>>>>> campuses. Harris and Kliebold wore T-shirts and cargo pants
>>>>>>>>> at Columbine.
>>>>>>>>> A student who had happened to have smuggled a gun into the
>>>>>>>>> school might have
>>>>>>>>> been able to have had a real impact on that event.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> An interesting thing to think about, in my opinion.
>>>>>>>>> Apparently, that
>>>>>>>>> opinion is not shared on this list.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Paul
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 08/11/2012 08:13 AM, Art Deco wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's hard to think of something more foolish than someone or
>>>>>>>>> ones with a
>>>>>>>>> hand gun in a disorganized, panicky crowd trying to shoot a
>>>>>>>>> person with a
>>>>>>>>> automatic weapon shielded by body armor. How many more
>>>>>>>>> victims would be
>>>>>>>>> added to the final body count?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Didn't something like this happen in the Moscow Massacre?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> w.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 7:02 AM, Donovan Arnold
>>>>>>>>> <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Tom,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> While your wife if shopping Tri-State, you should be to. I
>>>>>>>>>> mean come on,
>>>>>>>>>> support your community why don't you. :)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Donovan J. Arnold
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> From: Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>
>>>>>>>>>> To: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> Cc: "<vision2020 at moscow.com>" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 6:47 PM
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is
>>>>>>>>>> Promoting . .
>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You may very well be right, Sunil.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It's just a habit I have acquired while in the service.
>>>>>>>>>> Trust those
>>>>>>>>>> around you, but keep your powder dry.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I saw the poster at Tri-State. And, as I've said before,
>>>>>>>>>> this is the
>>>>>>>>>> first time I have seen such an advertisement in Moscow. I
>>>>>>>>>> checked a few
>>>>>>>>>> things out, such as its website, phone number, etc. etc.
>>>>>>>>>> etc. (Hey, I needed
>>>>>>>>>> something to pass the time while my wife was shopping at
>>>>>>>>>> Tri-State).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The more I dug, the more red flags I found. The more red
>>>>>>>>>> flags I found,
>>>>>>>>>> the more I dug. I have so many info sources, concerning
>>>>>>>>>> the NFT Academy,
>>>>>>>>>> bookmarked for reference I am thinking of discarding half
>>>>>>>>>> of 'em.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Seeya round town, Moscow.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Tom Hansen
>>>>>>>>>> Moscow, Idaho
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college
>>>>>>>>>> students. The college
>>>>>>>>>> students are not very active in local elections (thank
>>>>>>>>>> goodness!)."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> - Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 10, 2012, at 6:19 PM, Sunil Ramalingam
>>>>>>>>>> <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I've taken such a class and in the past had a concealed
>>>>>>>>>> weapon permit; who
>>>>>>>>>> knows, I may again. I don't think this class is a big deal.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sunil
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> From: thansen at moscow.com
>>>>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 17:41:58 -0700
>>>>>>>>>> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is
>>>>>>>>>> Promoting . .
>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The primary reason this caught my eye . . .
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I have lived here in Moscow for just over twenty years.
>>>>>>>>>> The is the FIRST
>>>>>>>>>> time I have seen concealed-weapon classes openly advertised
>>>>>>>>>> in town. Couple
>>>>>>>>>> that up with the increasing paranoia, as a result of the
>>>>>>>>>> recent instances in
>>>>>>>>>> Aurora (Colorado) and Milwaukee (Wisconsin), and I feel I
>>>>>>>>>> have a right to be
>>>>>>>>>> curious.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> BTW, the NFT Academy website has only been in existence
>>>>>>>>>> since April 2012
>>>>>>>>>> and was not publicly released until June 12, 2012 (TWO
>>>>>>>>>> MONTHS AGO).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://fiddlerstudios.com/created-by-fs/announcing-the-national-firearms-training-academy-website/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I have more info to share, concerning the NFT Academy and
>>>>>>>>>> its website, but
>>>>>>>>>> let's see where this thread leads.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Seeya round town, Moscow.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Tom Hansen
>>>>>>>>>> Moscow, Idaho
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college
>>>>>>>>>> students. The college
>>>>>>>>>> students are not very active in local elections (thank
>>>>>>>>>> goodness!)."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> - Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 10, 2012, at 3:09 PM, Sunil Ramalingam
>>>>>>>>>> <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Something legal? The nerve! Next they'll be selling guns!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sunil
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> From: thansen at moscow.com
>>>>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 14:24:56 -0700
>>>>>>>>>> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Vision2020] Look See What Tri-State is
>>>>>>>>>> Promoting . . .
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Seeya round town, Moscow.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Tom Hansen
>>>>>>>>>> Moscow, Idaho
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college
>>>>>>>>>> students. The college
>>>>>>>>>> students are not very active in local elections (thank
>>>>>>>>>> goodness!)."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> - Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> =======================================================
>>>>>>>>>> List services made
>>>>>>>>>> available by First Step Internet, serving the communities
>>>>>>>>>> of the Palouse
>>>>>>>>>> since 1994. http://www.fsr.net/ mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>>>>>> =======================================================
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> =======================================================
>>>>>>>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>>>>>>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.fsr.net/
>>>>>>>>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>>>>>> =======================================================
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> =======================================================
>>>>>>>>>> List services made
>>>>>>>>>> available by First Step Internet, serving the communities
>>>>>>>>>> of the Palouse
>>>>>>>>>> since 1994. http://www.fsr.net/ mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>>>>>> =======================================================
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> =======================================================
>>>>>>>>>> List services made available by First Step I
>>>>>>>>> =======================================================
>>>>>>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>>>>>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>>>>>>>> http://www.fsr.net
>>>>>>>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>>>>> =======================================================
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> =======================================================
>>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>>>> http://www.fsr.net
>>>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>> =======================================================
>>>
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
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