I think that possibility is about as slim as Paul's suggestion that someone with a CCW permit and a weapon may have stopped the bloodshed at Aurora.
But I've heard the argument made at CCW classes that it's responsible people who apply for such permits and who actually carry legally. While I generally agree that most people with permits are law-abiding, the fact is that there isn't any fool-proof way to make sure that only people who will use weapons responsibly will actually receive such permits.
I say this as someone who supports such permits. But I don't think that the training you need to get one in any way makes the average permit holder capable of taking on someone like the guy in Aurora and stopping him; I think that's just a fantasy.
Sunil
From: thansen at moscow.com
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 13:01:59 -0700
To: godshatter at yahoo.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting . . .
Very, very possibly . . .
Since he could not carry his weapon concealed, he may possibly have been arrested earlir for carrying a concealed weapon without a permit.
Seeya round town, Moscow.
Tom HansenMoscow, Idaho
"We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students. The college students are not very active in local elections (thank goodness!)."
- Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
On Aug 12, 2012, at 12:56 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
Do you think his not having a concealed handgun permit would have
stopped this tragedy? Honest question, not a "zinger".
Paul
On 08/12/2012 12:28 PM, Tom Hansen wrote:
Courtesy of the Huffington Post at:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-sugarmann/seattle-mass-shooting-lat_b_1563392.html
-----------------------------------
Seattle Mass
Shooting Latest by a Concealed Handgun Permit Holder
Posted:
06/01/2012 3:20 pm
Another day, another
mass shooting committed by a private citizen legally
allowed to carry a concealed, loaded handgun in public.
This time it was
40-year-old Ian Stawicki,
who entered a Seattle cafe on Wednesday and opened fire,
killing four people. He then left Cafe Racer, killing
another person during a carjacking before taking his own
life.
The pro-gun reaction
to this most recent slaughter by a concealed handgun
permit holder? That's life.
As pro-gun advocate
Dave Workman, a loyal foot soldier in the pro-gun
publishing and lobbying empire of convicted felon Alan
Gottlieb explained to
local NPR affiliate KUOW:
"I don't know that there's anything you
can do in these situations. We can't treat him like a
child, he's got his own life to live and he can make his
own mistakes no matter how horrific those mistakes turn
out to be."
"Those mistakes"
happen all too often. According to a running tally maintained
by my organization, the Violence Policy Center,
since May 2007, nearly 450 people have been killed in
334 non-self defense incidents by private citizens
legally allowed to carry concealed handguns.
Not including this
week's attack in Seattle, 20 of those incidents have
been mass shootings of three victims or more, resulting
in the deaths of 89 innocent victims.
Listed below, they
run the gamut from family annihilators to workplace
shooters, murder-suicides to attempted political
assassination:
In July
2011, in Texas, Tan Do, 35, opened fire at his son's
11th birthday party being held at the Forum Roller
World in Grand Prairie, Texas, killing the boy's
mother and four members of her family before taking
his own life.
In June 2011, in Arizona, Carey H.
Dyess, 73, went on an hours-long shooting rampage in
two communities, killing five before taking his own
life.
In January 2011, in Arizona, Jared
Lee Loughner, 22, opened fire at a "Congress on Your
Corner" constituent event held by Arizona U.S.
Representative Gabrielle Giffords outside a Tucson
Safeway supermarket. Loughner killed six people,
including a federal judge and a nine-year-old girl,
and injured 13, including Giffords, who was shot once
the face.
In August 2010, in Connecticut, Omar
Thornton, 34, went on a shooting rampage at the beer
distributorship where he worked, killing eight
co-workers before taking his own life.
In June 2010, in Florida, Gerardo
Regalado, 38, committed Hialeah, Florida's
worst mass shooting: killing four women and wounding
three others at the Yoyito Cafe-Restaurant.
In March 2010, in Tennessee, Michael
Joe Hood, 49, shot and killed his sister Susan Hood
Binkley, 44, her ex-husband Dale Binkley, 42, and
their 13-year-old son Jackson Binkley.
In January 2010, in Virginia,
Christopher Speight allegedly shot and killed eight
people including his sister and her husband, their
15-year-old daughter and four-year-old son, as well as
two teenagers aged 15 and 16.
In December 2009, in Utah, Justin
Matern shot and killed his wife and two sons, ages six
and four, before turning the gun on himself.
On Thanksgiving Day 2009, in
Florida, Paul Michael Merhige allegedly opened fire at
his family's Thanksgiving dinner shooting six
relatives, killing four. The deceased victims were his
twin sisters (one of whom was pregnant), his
76-year-old aunt, and a six-year-old cousin. As he
left the scene, Merhige was quoted by one witness as
saying, "I have been waiting 20 years for this."
In November 2009, in North Carolina,
William Maxwell shot and killed his wife Kathryn and
their teenage children Conner and Cameron before
killing himself.
In August 2009, in Pennsylvania,
George Sodini, 48, opened fire at an
LA Fitness Center in Collier, Pennsylvania,
killing three women and wounding nine others before
turning the gun on himself.
In April 2009, in Pennsylvania,
white supremacist Richard Poplawski shot and killed
police officers Stephen Mayhle, Paul Sciullo, and Eric
Kelly while injuring another.
In March 2009, in Alabama, Michael
McLendon, a self-proclaimed survivalist, killed his
mother at their family home, beginning a shooting
rampage that stretched across 24 miles. By the time
McLendon took his own life in the midst of a police
shootout at a factory where he had previously worked,
he had shot four more relatives, including his
74-year-old grandmother, and five strangers, including
the wife and 18-month-old daughter of a local
sheriff's deputy.
In February 2009, in New York, Frank
Garcia opened fire with a .40 Glock pistol in the
Lakeside Memorial Hospital parking lot in Brockport,
NY. He had recently been fired by the hospital. He
shot three people there, killing two, before killing a
married couple at their home in Canandaigua.
In September 2008, in Michigan, Troy
Brake, 31, shot to death 52-year-old Sharmaine Zimmer,
her sons, Tyler, 17, and Jeremy, 20, and beat to death
Jeremy's girlfriend, university student Katherine
Brown, 18.
In May 2008, in Virginia, Aaron
Poseidon Jackson, 24, shot and killed his two
children, one-year-old Aaron Neptune Jackson and
two-year-old Nicole Aaron Jackson, and their mother
Latasha Nicole Thomas, before taking his own life.
In March 2008, in Georgia, former
substitute teacher Charles Johnston entered Doctors
Hospital in Columbus, Georgia,
carrying three handguns: a .32, a 380, and a 9mm.
Johnson allegedly killed two people in the hospital
and a victim in the parking lot.
In September 2007, in Florida,
Guillermo Zarabozo and another man hired a charter
boat, later killing the boat's crew of four. Zarabozo
was found guilty of the four murders.
In July 2007, in Ohio, firefighter
Terrance Hough Jr. used a 40 caliber pistol to shoot
and kill neighbor Jacob Feichtner as well as Bruce
Anderson and Katherine Rosby as a result of a dispute
over fireworks the three were setting off on the
Fourth of July. Hough also shot and injured two
others. Hough's fellow firefighters described him as a
"ticking time bomb that finally exploded."
In May
2007, in Idaho, Jason Kenneth Hamilton, a member of
the white supremacist group Aryan Nation, shot and
killed his wife, a police officer, and a church
sexton, and wounded three others before turning the
gun on himself in a shooting spree in Moscow, Idaho.
Hamilton had a concealed handgun permit "despite a
[previous] domestic violence conviction that should
have barred him from owning guns."
Because most states
don't release detailed information on crimes committed
by concealed handgun permit holders, the incidents
listed above are from news reports. The actual number of
lethal non-self defense incidents involving private
citizens legally allowed to carry concealed handguns is
most likely far, far higher.
And yet, according to
concealed carry advocate Dave Workman, concealed handgun
permit holder and mass shooter Ian Stawicki had "his own
life to live."
What about his
victims and their families?
-----------------------------------
Seeya round town, Moscow.
Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho
"We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students.
The college students are not very active in local elections
(thank goodness!)."
- Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
On Aug 12, 2012, at 12:03 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
wrote:
Well, pony up your evidence. Since we seem to be so
focused on high visibility mass shootings, how many of those
turned out worse because of someone with a CWP permit? How
many victims in such cases have been shot by someone with a
CWP returning fire?
I'm not exactly a gun nut, by the way, I'd never owned a
gun before a couple of years ago when I inherited one. I've
shot a few, mostly when I was younger. I would just like to
talk about this as if I wasn't promoting a side, but no one
here has allowed that. Ever since my first post where I
wondered what would have happened in Aurora if someone had a
concealed firearm on their person I've ran headlong into a
wall of (paraphrasing) "a guy with a concealed handgun could
in no way, ever, actually be helpful in such a situation".
Just to test my understanding, can you conceive of a
situation involving a shooter on a killing spree where a
responsible person with a concealed weapon might actually
have helped things?
Paul
On 08/12/2012 09:44 AM, Joe Campbell wrote:
I'm not denying anyone anything.
It is annoying that no matter how
carefully I state my points you
keep characterizing them as something
else -- in this case as an
example of "rabid anti-gun rhetoric." I'm
not anti-gun or anti-2nd
amendment. In fact, I've taken my son
shooting on several occasions in
the past few months, with a
knowledgeable friend who has
been offering gun safety lessons as well.
I don't own a gun for the
reasons I've stated: I am far more likely to
hurt myself or others with it
than to help anyone. And so are you and
so is nearly everyone. That's
been my only point. Start carrying a gun
around to "protect" yourself and
you are FAR more likely to do harm
than good. Yours is a
fear-driven attitude with absolutely no evidence
to support it. Statistics prove
this, as well as the fact that you
can't find one single example of
a person saving the day in a
(potential) spree-killing. Not
one. Yet you continue to hold on to the
view that it is not a myth. Mine
is a very simple, reasonable,
rational point backed by
countless evidence. For you to turn it into
some type of radical view is
egregious but I'll have to get used to it
since you do this all the time.
On Aug 12, 2012, at 9:14 AM,
Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
wrote:
I guess there's no point in
looking for other examples. Pre-planned, well-executed
mass-murders just aren't common enough to give you those
statistics and the percentage of CWP holder is (I'm
guessing) relatively small, and most of these killing
sprees happen in gun-free zones where law-abiding permit
holders wouldn't be armed anyway. This NY Times article
claims that the Aurora theater banned firearms (even to
permit holders), which places it in the category of
"gun-free zones" too.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/21/us/colorado-gun-laws-remain-lax-despite-changes-after-columbine.html?_r=1
If someone had you pinned down
in a dark theater and you feared for your life wouldn't
you want some way to defend yourself? I don't get this
rabid anti-gun rhetoric. I notice the ban firearms
policy didn't stop James Holmes from going on his
killing spree. Metal detectors wouldn't have helped,
either, because he left and came back through the exit
doors which wouldn't have had them anyway. Even a
complete firearms ban country-wide wouldn't have helped
because I doubt he would have had qualms about
purchasing guns on the black market. It might have
taken him longer to prepare, is all.
Short of a 1984-esque society,
I don't know how you could stop this kind of thing.
Even if they were successful, this guy could have done
what he did with a satchel full of Molotov cocktails. So
why not even the odds and allow people the option of
personal defense?
Paul
On 08/12/2012 07:10 AM, Joe
Campbell wrote:
But this is a case in which
someone did not use a gun to defend
himself against the
attacker. According to the Pastor, "I was up there
preaching, and I stepped off
of there into a chair and on the rail
that went around, and I dove
right off and grabbed the gun." The
Pastor had concealed weapons
training but didn't use a gun to prevent
further harm.
Again, I have nothing
against training, nothing against guns frankly
(though I think it is too
easy to get guns in our country). My main
point is that guns usually
do more harm than good. It is rare that
having a gun will actually
help you and the evidence suggests that if
you own a gun you are far
more likely to be harmed by it -- either by
accident or by an assailant
taking it from you -- than you are of
protecting yourself in an
Aurora type situation.
On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at
11:45 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
wrote:
Here's one that happened
in Boiling Springs, SC. Some links to news stories
about it:
http://www.wyff4.com/Deputies-Armed-Man-Kicks-In-Church-Door-During-Service/-/9324882/10075734/-/item/1/-/jjxqgj/-/index.html
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2012/03/25/Man-with-shotgun-arrested-at-SC-church/UPI-35931332729850/
http://charlotte.cbslocal.com/2012/03/26/sheriff-concealed-weapon-saves-church-from-man-armed-with-shotgun/
tl;dr version: A man with
a CWP, armed, sees a man take a shotgun out of
the trunk of his car
during church services. He warns the congregation,
and
locks the doors. The man
kicks in a side door and is disarmed and wrestled
to the ground by
parishioners and held at gunpoint by the guy with
the
concealed weapons permit
until authorities arrive. The shotgun the man had
brought was loaded, and he
claims he was going to kidnap the pastor.
I don't know if this would
have turned into a bloodbath if that guy hadn't
acted quickly, I doubt
anyone does. That's the trouble with this sort of
request as Gary alluded
to. We don't know that this would have been a
tragedy without his help,
but it sure might have been one.
Paul
On 08/11/2012 09:52 PM,
Joe Campbell wrote:
Well I can't. But you said
it was a robbery, not a Columbine or Aurora type
situation. Certainly you
can't be sure he didn't prevent deaths; can't be
sure their guns were
loaded either. You just don't know. Paul was talking
about an Aurora type
situation, where the purpose is spree killing. Any
examples of someone
preventing that from happening with a handgun?
Haven't
heard or seen of one yet.
On Aug 11, 2012, at 8:28
PM, "Gary Crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
wrote:
So, logically speaking,
how can you know what was prevented? How can you
know that one of the
bandits wouldn't have started shooting and not quit
till the incident had
assumed tragic proportions? Were did you acquire
this
awesome ability to
determine what might and might not have been?
g
From: Joe Campbell
Sent: Saturday, August 11,
2012 3:46 PM
To: Gary Crabtree
Cc: Paul Rumelhart ; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
[more] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting . . .
Well whether someone used
a gun and saved the day in a case like Aurora is
either true or false. If
true, when and where?
The case you have is
different. Robbers who shot NO ONE and were
subsequently shot by an
old man. Not a case of preventing violence by any
means.
I guess your next
suggestion is to get rid of police -- too much big
government -- and it's
everyone for himself.
On Aug 11, 2012, at 2:34
PM, "Gary Crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
wrote:
CWP holders will be
reluctant to pipe up in as much as part of concealed
is
keeping your yap shut and
avoiding telling all of Gods creation that you're
healed. Your opinion is
looked on with favor by some to be sure.
A recent example of an
armed citizen exercising his rights to good effect:
http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/71-Year-Old-Man-Shoots-Would-Be-Robbers-at-Ocala-Internet-Cafe-Authorities-162941656.html
To say that a guy with a
hand gun has never prevented a massacre is
illogical in as much as
who can say what might have happened had a different
path been followed? In one
scenario two goblins are wounded and taken to
jail. In another, a dozen
innocents minding their own business in a internet
café are senselessly
murdered...film at 11:00
g
From: Paul Rumelhart
Sent: Saturday, August 11,
2012 9:57 AM
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
[more] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting . . .
Yes, you'd have to be damn
sure about your line of fire. Firing in the
middle of a frenzied crowd
running panicked for the exits would surely be
asking for trouble.
However, it's my understanding that for a while
during
the shooting the shooter
had complete control of the situation. Anyone
trying to leave was shot.
Many people were playing dead in the hopes they
would be passed over.
Firing on the shooter, even if he's in body armor,
might distract him enough
that some people might have made it to the exits.
Body armor doesn't make
you invincible, depending on the armor and the
caliber of the weapon used
you might still have made an impact, since he'd
still be hit by the blunt
force of the bullet. In this situation, though,
you would probably also
have been shot dead shortly after because he was so
well prepared (vest,
leggings, throat protector, groin protector, and a
helmet with a visor). Who
knows? Telling a loved one "when I start
shooting, RUN for the exit
and don't stop" might have worked.
Most other shootings like
this we've heard about haven't involved such a
heavily armored assailant.
In fact, quite a few of them have taken place in
areas where gun use is
often restricted, such as in schools or on
university
campuses. Harris and
Kliebold wore T-shirts and cargo pants at Columbine.
A student who had happened
to have smuggled a gun into the school might have
been able to have had a
real impact on that event.
An interesting thing to
think about, in my opinion. Apparently, that
opinion is not shared on
this list.
Paul
On 08/11/2012 08:13 AM,
Art Deco wrote:
It's hard to think of
something more foolish than someone or ones with a
hand gun in a
disorganized, panicky crowd trying to shoot a person
with a
automatic weapon shielded
by body armor. How many more victims would be
added to the final body
count?
Didn't something like this
happen in the Moscow Massacre?
w.
On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at
7:02 AM, Donovan Arnold
<donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
wrote:
Tom,
While your wife if
shopping Tri-State, you should be to. I mean come
on,
support your community
why don't you. :)
Donovan J. Arnold
From: Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>
To: Sunil Ramalingam
<sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
Cc: "<vision2020 at moscow.com>"
<vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Friday, August 10,
2012 6:47 PM
Subject: Re:
[Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is
Promoting . .
.
You may very well be
right, Sunil.
It's just a habit I have
acquired while in the service. Trust those
around you, but keep
your powder dry.
I saw the poster at
Tri-State. And, as I've said before, this is the
first time I have seen
such an advertisement in Moscow. I checked a few
things out, such as its
website, phone number, etc. etc. etc. (Hey, I
needed
something to pass the
time while my wife was shopping at Tri-State).
The more I dug, the more
red flags I found. The more red flags I found,
the more I dug. I have
so many info sources, concerning the NFT Academy,
bookmarked for reference
I am thinking of discarding half of 'em.
Seeya round town,
Moscow.
Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho
"We're a town of about
23,000 with 10,000 college students. The college
students are not very
active in local elections (thank goodness!)."
- Dale Courtney (March
28, 2007)
On Aug 10, 2012, at 6:19
PM, Sunil Ramalingam
<sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
wrote:
I've taken such a class
and in the past had a concealed weapon permit; who
knows, I may again. I
don't think this class is a big deal.
Sunil
From: thansen at moscow.com
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012
17:41:58 -0700
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re:
[Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is
Promoting . .
.
The primary reason this
caught my eye . . .
I have lived here in
Moscow for just over twenty years. The is the
FIRST
time I have seen
concealed-weapon classes openly advertised in
town. Couple
that up with the
increasing paranoia, as a result of the recent
instances in
Aurora (Colorado) and
Milwaukee (Wisconsin), and I feel I have a right
to be
curious.
BTW, the NFT Academy
website has only been in existence since April
2012
and was not publicly
released until June 12, 2012 (TWO MONTHS AGO).
http://fiddlerstudios.com/created-by-fs/announcing-the-national-firearms-training-academy-website/
I have more info to
share, concerning the NFT Academy and its website,
but
let's see where this
thread leads.
Seeya round town,
Moscow.
Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho
"We're a town of about
23,000 with 10,000 college students. The college
students are not very
active in local elections (thank goodness!)."
- Dale Courtney (March
28, 2007)
On Aug 10, 2012, at 3:09
PM, Sunil Ramalingam
<sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
wrote:
Something legal? The
nerve! Next they'll be selling guns!
Sunil
From: thansen at moscow.com
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012
14:24:56 -0700
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020]
Look See What Tri-State is Promoting . . .
Seeya round town,
Moscow.
Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho
"We're a town of about
23,000 with 10,000 college students. The college
students are not very
active in local elections (thank goodness!)."
- Dale Courtney (March
28, 2007)
=======================================================
List services made
available by First Step
Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse
since 1994. http://www.fsr.net/
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
=======================================================
List services made
available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities
of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net/
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
=======================================================
List services made
available by First Step
Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse
since 1994. http://www.fsr.net/
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
=======================================================
List services made
available by First Step I
=======================================================
List services made
available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of
the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20120812/d1673927/attachment-0001.html>