[Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting . . .

Sun Aug 12 07:10:38 PDT 2012

But this is a case in which someone did not use a gun to defend
himself against the attacker. According to the Pastor, "I was up there
preaching, and I stepped off of there into a chair and on the rail
that went around, and I dove right off and grabbed the gun." The
Pastor had concealed weapons training but didn't use a gun to prevent
further harm.

Again, I have nothing against training, nothing against guns frankly
(though I think it is too easy to get guns in our country). My main
point is that guns usually do more harm than good. It is rare that
having a gun will actually help you and the evidence suggests that if
you own a gun you are far more likely to be harmed by it -- either by
accident or by an assailant taking it from you -- than you are of
protecting yourself in an Aurora type situation.

On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 11:45 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Here's one that happened in Boiling Springs, SC.  Some links to news stories
> about it:
>
> http://www.wyff4.com/Deputies-Armed-Man-Kicks-In-Church-Door-During-Service/-/9324882/10075734/-/item/1/-/jjxqgj/-/index.html
> http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2012/03/25/Man-with-shotgun-arrested-at-SC-church/UPI-35931332729850/
> http://charlotte.cbslocal.com/2012/03/26/sheriff-concealed-weapon-saves-church-from-man-armed-with-shotgun/
>
> tl;dr version:  A man with a CWP, armed, sees a man take a shotgun out of
> the trunk of his car during church services.  He warns the congregation, and
> locks the doors.  The man kicks in a side door and is disarmed and wrestled
> to the ground by parishioners and held at gunpoint by the guy with the
> concealed weapons permit until authorities arrive.  The shotgun the man had
> brought was loaded, and he claims he was going to kidnap the pastor.
>
> I don't know if this would have turned into a bloodbath if that guy hadn't
> acted quickly, I doubt anyone does.  That's the trouble with this sort of
> request as Gary alluded to.  We don't know that this would have been a
> tragedy without his help, but it sure might have been one.
>
> Paul
>
>
> On 08/11/2012 09:52 PM, Joe Campbell wrote:
>
> Well I can't. But you said it was a robbery, not a Columbine or Aurora type
> situation. Certainly you can't be sure he didn't prevent deaths; can't be
> sure their guns were loaded either. You just don't know. Paul was talking
> about an Aurora type situation, where the purpose is spree killing. Any
> examples of someone preventing that from happening with a handgun? Haven't
> heard or seen of one yet.
>
>
>
> On Aug 11, 2012, at 8:28 PM, "Gary Crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
>
> So, logically speaking, how can you know what was prevented? How can you
> know that one of the bandits wouldn't have started shooting and not quit
> till the incident had assumed tragic proportions? Were did you acquire this
> awesome ability to determine what might and might not have been?
>
> g
>
> From: Joe Campbell
> Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 3:46 PM
> To: Gary Crabtree
> Cc: Paul Rumelhart ; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting . . .
>
> Well whether someone used a gun and saved the day in a case like Aurora is
> either true or false. If true, when and where?
>
> The case you have is different. Robbers who shot NO ONE and were
> subsequently shot by an old man. Not a case of preventing violence by any
> means.
>
> I guess your next suggestion is to get rid of police -- too much big
> government -- and it's everyone for himself.
>
> On Aug 11, 2012, at 2:34 PM, "Gary Crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
>
> CWP holders will be reluctant to pipe up in as much as part of concealed is
> keeping your yap shut and avoiding telling all of Gods creation that you're
> healed. Your opinion is looked on with favor by some to be sure.
>
> A recent example of an armed citizen exercising his rights to good effect:
>
> http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/71-Year-Old-Man-Shoots-Would-Be-Robbers-at-Ocala-Internet-Cafe-Authorities-162941656.html
>
> To say that a guy with a hand gun has never prevented a massacre is
> illogical in as much as who can say what might have happened had a different
> path been followed? In one scenario two goblins are wounded and taken to
> jail. In another, a dozen innocents minding their own business in a internet
> café are senselessly murdered...film at 11:00
>
> g
>
> From: Paul Rumelhart
> Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 9:57 AM
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting . . .
>
>
> Yes, you'd have to be damn sure about your line of fire.  Firing in the
> middle of a frenzied crowd running panicked for the exits would surely be
> asking for trouble.  However, it's my understanding that for a while during
> the shooting the shooter had complete control of the situation.  Anyone
> trying to leave was shot.  Many people were playing dead in the hopes they
> would  be passed over.  Firing on the shooter, even if he's in body armor,
> might distract him enough that some people might have made it to the exits.
> Body armor doesn't make you invincible, depending on the armor and the
> caliber of the weapon used you might still have made an impact, since he'd
> still be hit by the blunt force of the bullet.  In this situation, though,
> you would probably also have been shot dead shortly after because he was so
> well prepared (vest, leggings, throat protector, groin protector, and a
> helmet with a visor).  Who knows?  Telling a loved one "when I start
> shooting, RUN for the exit and don't stop" might have worked.
>
> Most other shootings like this we've heard about haven't involved such a
> heavily armored assailant.  In fact, quite a few of them have taken place in
> areas where gun use is often restricted, such as in schools or on university
> campuses.  Harris and Kliebold wore T-shirts and cargo pants at Columbine.
> A student who had happened to have smuggled a gun into the school might have
> been able to have had a real impact on that event.
>
> An interesting thing to think about, in my opinion.  Apparently, that
> opinion is not shared on this list.
>
> Paul
>
>
> On 08/11/2012 08:13 AM, Art Deco wrote:
>
> It's hard to think of something more foolish than someone or ones with a
> hand gun in a disorganized, panicky crowd trying to shoot a person with a
> automatic weapon shielded by body armor.  How many more victims would be
> added to the final body count?
>
> Didn't something like this happen in the Moscow Massacre?
>
> w.
>
> On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 7:02 AM, Donovan Arnold
> <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> Tom,
>>
>> While your wife if shopping Tri-State, you should be to. I mean come on,
>> support your community why don't you. :)
>>
>> Donovan J. Arnold
>>
>> From: Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>
>> To: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
>> Cc: "<vision2020 at moscow.com>" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 6:47 PM
>>
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting . .
>> .
>>
>> You may very well be right, Sunil.
>>
>> It's just a habit I have acquired while in the service.  Trust those
>> around you, but keep your powder dry.
>>
>> I saw the poster at Tri-State.  And, as I've said before, this is the
>> first time I have seen such an advertisement in Moscow.  I checked a few
>> things out, such as its website, phone number, etc. etc. etc. (Hey, I needed
>> something to pass the time while my wife was shopping at Tri-State).
>>
>> The more I dug, the more red flags I found.  The more red flags I found,
>> the more I dug.  I have so many info sources, concerning the NFT Academy,
>> bookmarked for reference I am thinking of discarding half of 'em.
>>
>> Seeya round town, Moscow.
>>
>> Tom Hansen
>> Moscow, Idaho
>>
>> "We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students.  The college
>> students are not very active in local elections (thank goodness!)."
>>
>> - Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
>>
>>
>> On Aug 10, 2012, at 6:19 PM, Sunil Ramalingam
>> <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I've taken such a class and in the past had a concealed weapon permit; who
>> knows, I may again. I don't think this class is a big deal.
>>
>> Sunil
>>
>> From: thansen at moscow.com
>> Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 17:41:58 -0700
>> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting . .
>> .
>>
>> The primary reason this caught my eye . . .
>>
>> I have lived here in Moscow for just over twenty years.  The is the FIRST
>> time I have seen concealed-weapon classes openly advertised in town.  Couple
>> that up with the increasing paranoia, as a result of the recent instances in
>> Aurora (Colorado) and Milwaukee (Wisconsin), and I feel I have a right to be
>> curious.
>>
>> BTW, the NFT Academy website has only been in existence since April 2012
>> and was not publicly released until June 12, 2012 (TWO MONTHS AGO).
>>
>>
>> http://fiddlerstudios.com/created-by-fs/announcing-the-national-firearms-training-academy-website/
>>
>> I have more info to share, concerning the NFT Academy and its website, but
>> let's see where this thread leads.
>>
>> Seeya round town, Moscow.
>>
>> Tom Hansen
>> Moscow, Idaho
>>
>> "We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students.  The college
>> students are not very active in local elections (thank goodness!)."
>>
>> - Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
>>
>>
>> On Aug 10, 2012, at 3:09 PM, Sunil Ramalingam
>> <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Something legal? The nerve! Next they'll be selling guns!
>>
>> Sunil
>>
>> From: thansen at moscow.com
>> Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 14:24:56 -0700
>> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>> Subject: [Vision2020] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting . . .
>>
>>
>>
>> Seeya round town, Moscow.
>>
>> Tom Hansen
>> Moscow, Idaho
>>
>> "We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students.  The college
>> students are not very active in local elections (thank goodness!)."
>>
>>
>> - Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
>>
>>
>>
>> ======================================================= List services made
>> available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse
>> since 1994. http://www.fsr.net/ mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> =======================================================
>>
>> =======================================================
>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>               http://www.fsr.net/
>>          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> =======================================================
>>
>>
>> ======================================================= List services made
>> available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse
>> since 1994. http://www.fsr.net/ mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> =======================================================
>>
>> =======================================================
>> List services made available by First Step I
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>               http://www.fsr.net
>          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
>
>