[Vision2020] Hypocrisy (was RE: September 11th Memorial Events)

Fri Sep 16 13:12:54 PDT 2011

Sunil,

You wrote:

"No, it's not clearer because you started by misrepresenting what Paul was
saying, as he's already pointed out. Since you ignored that point in your
reaction to his post, I'll bring it up again."

That's a valid criticism with some qualification you may or may not care
about.

Somehow, I missed Wayne's post with the crackpot comment - I didn't get that
email & it wasn't included at the bottom of Paul's response.  And, due to
the html formatting of Paul's response with no quotes to clarify who was
saying what as well as more significantly poor reading on my part, I
completely missed that the preceding paragraph wasn't Paul's writing but
rather something Paul was responding to.  The fault there clearly lies with
me - when I went looking for Wayne's post last night in the online V2020
archive, I also found Paul's response in plain text, and in plain text, it
was clear as day text who wrote what.  My apologies to Paul & to everyone
else for not reading more carefully & catching that.

I hope you can understand now that my misrepresentation wasn't intentional
and why Paul's "Jim Wilson is nice & respectful" comments incorrectly seemed
like a non sequitur to me.  Additionally, my understanding going back a
couple/few years is that Jim Wilson really doesn't have anything to do with
the annual block party - I was told that by one of the Nuart volunteers back
when Jim Wilson (mostly) retired.

However, when I responded Tuesday to your email, Sunil, I hadn't seen
Wayne's "crackpot" email & Paul didn't post his clarification until
Wednesday -- the day following my response.  I don't think you're being fair
in accusing me of "ignoring" Paul's clarification before he posted it.  Now,
if I missed something else before that, please feel free to point it out to
me.

You also wrote:

"But I still like Jim. I don't agree with him and don't endorse his views,
but I like him. It's how I feel, independent of my beliefs."

Yes, you've made that quite clear now as before.  Each of us is entitled to
our opinions.  Of course.

Saundra

Moscow, ID

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
nothing.

~ Edmund Burke

From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
On Behalf Of Sunil Ramalingam
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 6:42 AM
Cc: vision 2020
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Hypocrisy (was RE: September 11th Memorial Events)

Saundra,

No, it's not clearer because you started by misrepresenting what Paul was
saying, as he's already pointed out. Since you ignored that point in your
reaction to his post, I'll bring it up again. 

You just wrote, "Sunil, you asked where I was "going with this," and in a
nutshell, Paul's argument that the anti-choice block party on 9/11 must be
OK because Jim Wilson is "nice" and "respectful" is a non sequitur logical
fallacy."

Well, of course! And you can say stuff like that all day if you make things
up and claim people said them. But Paul didn't argue that the party (he
didn't call it 'anti-choice,' but you know that) must be OK because he
thought Jim Wilson is 'an extremely nice and respectful individual.'

That's not the premise of Paul's argument. It never was. The logical fallacy
is of your making, not his.

He said those words after Wayne referred to Jim as a 'crackpot' and 'now
gaga.' He had already stated his view that the party didn't bother him the
day before.

You've given your reasons for your opinion of Jim. It's quite clear now, as
it was before, that you don't like or respect him, or the Nuart ministry.
And I'm not trying to argue with you about your views. And if every claim
you make is true, they I don't agree with what they've done. 

But I still like Jim. I don't agree with him and don't endorse his views,
but I like him. It's how I feel, independent of my beliefs. 

Sunil

  _____  

From: v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm
To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com; godshatter at yahoo.com; suehovey at moscow.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Hypocrisy (was RE: September 11th Memorial Events)
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 23:30:16 -0700

Paul & Sunil:

In another post, Paul wrote:

"I don't disagree with you about tax exemption being an outdated model that
should be abolished."

Ahh - some common ground  J

Sunil, you asked where I was "going with this," and in a nutshell, Paul's
argument that the anti-choice block party on 9/11 must be OK because Jim
Wilson is "nice" and "respectful" is a non sequitur logical fallacy.

Clearly, I've not done a good job of explaining myself since this seems to
have turned into "what a great guy Jim Wilson is" lovefest.  My apologies.

There's not a doubt in my mind that I could find people to say Hitler was a
nice guy (he loved dogs, you know), and bin Laden was a nice guy, and Dick
Cheney is a nice guy . . . or that Jim Wilson is "nice" and "respectful."

What I object to is taking those limited personal anecdotal
experiences/opinions to outweigh a larger (IMO) bad.  I don't give a rip
about someone's opinion of an individual on an individual basis, but Paul
trotted out "Jim Wilson is a nice & respectful man" as a defense for CCM's &
the NuArt's anti-choice block party.

I personally believe that being dishonest isn't OK, whether that dishonesty
comes in the form of active lying (commission) or withholding necessary
information (omission).  I find "white lies" less offensive than whoppers,
but I do find lying under oath and lying by religious (of any religion) &
political (of any slant) leaders to be about as bad as it gets as well as
morally indefensible & disgusting.

And, there's no reason to construct an example ("If a murderer comes to your
door to kill your friend hiding inside your house, isn't it OK to lie
then?") to make this more complex than it is:  the dishonesty under oath by
religious leader Jim Wilson was solely to keep a property tax exemption to
which he felt entitled even though he wasn't willing to play by the rules
required for that property tax exemption.

IOW, it wasn't just lying, it was lying to steal from the rest of us.  He
wasn't stealing to feed his family or to buy medicine for a sick child; he
was lying to keep a comfortable benefit to which his organization flatly
wasn't entitled, pure & simple.

Nobody forced CCM to ask for a property tax exemption (and CCM did have to
apply for it; it wasn't presented on a silver platter unasked for) - if CCM
didn't want to play by the required rules for getting the privilege of a
property tax exemption, it could have declined that privilege at any time.

[Note to Sue:  some churches actually decline tax exemption of a federal &
state level because those churches don't want to be limited by the
requirements.  It is possible to do & an excellent - IMHO - example of
taking an ideological high ground.  Further, there are churches & religious
institutions who have lost tax exempt status because they got caught not
following the rules, something we'll definitely not see more of with the
small but vocal trend that that government is unnecessary.]

But, he didn't:  instead of being honest, Jim Wilson decided deceit &
dishonesty were the way to go to continue stealing from the taxpayers.
Disgusting.

Now, some of you don't care about lying under oath or stealing from
taxpayers (or perhaps you care but don't think it's a big deal in the scheme
of things ) - that's fine.  I don't understand that lack of care, just like
I don't understand lots of things that are important to me (i.e, a Christian
who thinks the separation of church & state is vital), but variety makes the
world go 'round.

But, don't expect me to keep silent about it when someone pulls a non
sequitur singing the praises of a local religious leader I personally know
to be a dishonest thief for whom the ends apparently justify the means,
knowledge that's available to anyone caring to look at the facts.

Further, I've personally found the NuArt "ministry" to be anything
"respectful" - it isn't just to welcome students back to the area but rather
to find converts & like-minded folks.  Nothing illegal there, but let's be
honest about what it is, Paul, instead of trying to paint it as something it
isn't.  And, I certainly have no problem with like-minded folks finding
local friends.

For those who don't know, as the manager, Eric Engerbritson is perhaps the
most "public" face of the NuArt.  A few years back (2003 - yup, I've still
got the correspondence), we were having a discussion on V2020 about
institutional corporal punishment as practiced by Logos School.  Eric
contacted me privately to have a "personal" discussion about benefits of
Logos whacking kids.  I very politely but firmly declined.  But, that wasn't
acceptable to Eric, and he proceeded to email me an essay that easily is in
the Top Five most disturbing local writings I've ever read.  When he didn't
hear back from me, that wasn't good enough, either - he contacted me yet
again.  Hardly what I'd call "respectful."

Second, I know quite a few gay & lesbian young people who have more recently
been victimized (and I don't use that term lightly) by people at the NuArt.
"Hate the sin; love the sinner" only goes so far when they won't leave you
alone.  Frankly, the email & text exchanges that have been shared with me
are clearly harassment, but I also can't fault those young people for not
taking legal action.  It's heartbreaking and definitely not respectful.

Finally, I offered no comment about the NuArt block party being offensive
because it fell on 9/11 because I personally have found the NuArt
anti-choice block party offensive since the very first one . . . but that
wasn't the topic.  Besides, no one I know has ever described it -- whether
it fell on 9/11 or not - as inoffensive until this thread.  After my
response to Paul about hypocrisy, someone on V2020 forwarded my post to
someone no longer in the area who forwarded it to a young woman who is also
no longer in the area who contacted me.  This young woman happened across
one of the early anti-choice NuArt block parties when she was new to the
area & in crisis.   She was "welcomed" & encouraged to go to the NuArt for
"support."  That "support" took to form of being "counseled" not to tell her
pro-choice parents of her pregnancy until it was "too late for them to talk
to me about abortion.  Fortunately, I didn't listen to that advice . . .
Yes, you have my permission to relate my experience now that several years
have passed as long as you don't use my name or current location since I'm
no longer in Pullman."  According to this young woman, who I've spoken to -
as well as to her parents - on the phone, the NuArt gang wouldn't leave her
alone & she doesn't want them to know where she is now - she left the area
specifically to get away from them because they wouldn't leave her alone.
That's also not what I consider "respectful."

So, I've always found those anti-choice block parties offensive & it has
nothing to do with this year's anti-choice event happening to fall on 9/11,
which is why I didn't comment on that aspect of the thread.  But, with
respect to the anti-choice block party, they've jumped through the
appropriate hoops to get whatever permits are required.  If I lived
downtown, I'd likely have a different perspective from a noise standpoint,
as I've heard from quite a few people who do live in the area that the noise
is beyond obnoxious.  As I've told them, their recourse is to take it up
with the City.

Sunil, is that clearer now?

Saundra

Moscow, ID

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
nothing.

~ Edmund Burke

From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
On Behalf Of Sunil Ramalingam
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2011 8:58 PM
Cc: vision 2020
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Hypocrisy (was RE: September 11th Memorial Events)

Saundra,

Where are you going with this? Is it that Paul shouldn't have a positive
view of Jim based on his personal experience with the man? Do you expect him
to change his views based on your experience with Jim? Or is it that he
shouldn't voice his opinion lest he grow bone-weary of this thread and these
attacks on him?

I frequently disagree with Paul, but I don't think he's being passive
aggressive here. He just doesn't agree with you, and amazingly you haven't
won him over.

I know Jim too, not in the context you do. I don't agree with his religious
views. We don't talk politics, but I have to believe we disagree there too.
But based on my interactions with him, I like him. That's my opinion, and I
realize people I often agree with on various issues will disagree with me.
That's okay, we don't have to agree on everything. You don't like him, and
that's your opinion. I can live with that.

Sunil

  _____  

From: v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm
To: godshatter at yahoo.com; deco at moscow.com
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 11:26:32 -0700
CC: Vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Hypocrisy (was RE: September 11th Memorial Events)

So, Paul, let's get right down to brass tacks instead of your
passive-aggressive patronizing BS that I suspect I'm not the only one
bone-weary of.  Simple answer:  yes or no.  

Is it your position, then, that if the only way the head of a non-profit
group like Jim Wilson (or Doug Wilson or Roy Atwood, for that matter) can
keep the group's tax exempt status is by being a deceitful, dishonest,
disingenuous liar (either by omission or commission) year after year after
year to the "secular government," appropriate descriptions of that same
person are "nice" and "respectful"?

And, as was pointed out to me by an offlist correspondent, if Jim Wilson
would give you the shirt off his back, remember it's the taxpayers who are
paying for it, not Jim Wilson.

Like it or not, Paul, tax exemption - property or otherwise -- is a
privilege granted by the government in exchange for an agreement by the
exempt entity to abide by the rules -- it's not a right.  Frankly, I think
it's an outdated model that needs to be abolished because rampant abuse has
been proven time and again, both locally and around the nation.  Too, tax
exemption dates back to a time when the "greater good" works were done, for
the most part, in the home community - that's clearly not the case now.

Personally, I'm tickled pink that some jurisdictions (Illinois & California
are two) are taking a hard look at property tax exemptions - Idaho really
should follow suit rather than gutting education, going after services that
help the elderly & disabled stay in their communities with decent qualities
of life, providing basic assistance to the working poor and economically
disadvantaged among us . . . and subsidizing the disastrous efforts of big
business.  I think most folks would be absolutely shocked at how much giving
away property tax exemptions costs our communities.  I've heard rumors of a
movement in the southern part of the state advocating that as a part of the
NPO & religious property tax exemption process, clear public disclosure
should be required of the financial loss to the taxing jurisdiction & that
information should be freely available at assessor offices, in person &
online.  Personally, I don't think it's likely to be successful because we
have too many in government who represent their churches rather than all of
their constituents, but maybe I'll be proven wrong.  Idaho has turned giving
away taxpayer money to cronies into a high art form and at great cost - and
waste - to the taxpayers.  Huh - what a surprise in a red state . . . not.

Saundra Lund

Moscow, ID

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
nothing.

~ Edmund Burke

From: Paul Rumelhart [mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com] 
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2011 3:13 PM
To: Saundra Lund; 'Art Deco'
Cc: Vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: Hypocrisy (was RE: September 11th Memorial Events)

Aren't all churches, all across the country, tax exempt?

I don't know what you're referring to when you say he lied under oath, so I
really can't comment on it.

Anyway, my apologies for noticing the guy's positive qualities.

Paul

  _____  

From: Saundra Lund <v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm>
To: 'Paul Rumelhart' <godshatter at yahoo.com>; 'Art Deco' <deco at moscow.com>
Cc: Vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2011 12:38 PM
Subject: Hypocrisy (was RE: September 11th Memorial Events)

In part, Paul wrote:

"I know Jim Wilson personally.  He's an extremely nice and respectful
individual, and (despite not agreeing with him on matters of faith) is as
sane as anyone on this list.  He's the kind of guy that would give you the
shirt off his back if he thought you needed it more than he.  If he thinks a
certain way about something, it's because that's his honest interpretation
from reading his Bible."

Huh - you must know a different Jim Wilson than do I because I personally
don't give a rip how "nice" or "respectful" someone may be if honesty &
integrity are lacking, as is the case with Jim Wilson wanting a free tax
ride & expecting government - which means you & me -- to pay for his ride.
My friends will remember how completely shocked & disappointed I was that
Wilson had no difficulty being dishonest under oath.  Pathetic.

Personally, I don't think it's OK to be disingenuous - at best - just to
stick the rest of us with CCM's tax bill, and I don't think God thinks it's
OK, either.  Lying, cheating, stealing - or being intentionally obtuse --
are OK as long as long as you're ripping off those who don't share a
particular faith, eh?  Not in my faith, and not in my world, it isn't.

Hypocrisy is hypocrisy is hypocrisy, and we know that it pains you, Paul,
but it's even more reprehensible when it comes from so-called "religious
leaders" like Jim Wilson.

Saundra Lund

Moscow, ID

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
nothing.

~ Edmund Burke

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