[Vision2020] Hypocrisy (was RE: September 11th Memorial Events)

[Sunil Ramalingam]

Saundra,

No, it's not clearer because you started by misrepresenting what Paul was saying, as he's already pointed out. Since you ignored that point in your reaction to his post, I'll bring it up again. 

You just wrote, "Sunil, you asked where I was “going with this,” and in a nutshell, Paul’s argument that the anti-choice block party on 9/11 must be OK because Jim Wilson is “nice” and “respectful” is a non sequitur logical fallacy."

Well, of course! And you can say stuff like that all day if you make things up and claim people said them. But Paul didn't argue that the party (he didn't call it 'anti-choice,' but you know that) must be OK because he thought Jim Wilson is 'an extremely nice and respectful individual.'

That's not the premise of Paul's argument. It never was. The logical fallacy is of your making, not his.

He said those words after Wayne referred to Jim as a 'crackpot' and 'now gaga.' He had already stated his view that the party didn't bother him the day before.

You've given your reasons for your opinion of Jim. It's quite clear now, as it was before, that you don't like or respect him, or the Nuart ministry. And I'm not trying to argue with you about your views. And if every claim you make is true, they I don't agree with what they've done. 

But I still like Jim. I don't agree with him and don't endorse his views, but I like him. It's how I feel, independent of my beliefs. 

Sunil

From: v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm
To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com; godshatter at yahoo.com; suehovey at moscow.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Hypocrisy (was RE: September 11th Memorial Events)
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 23:30:16 -0700



Paul & Sunil: In another post, Paul wrote:“I don't disagree with you about tax exemption being an outdated model that should be abolished.” Ahh – some common ground  J Sunil, you asked where I was “going with this,” and in a nutshell, Paul’s argument that the anti-choice block party on 9/11 must be OK because Jim Wilson is “nice” and “respectful” is a non sequitur logical fallacy. Clearly, I’ve not done a good job of explaining myself since this seems to have turned into “what a great guy Jim Wilson is” lovefest.  My apologies. There’s not a doubt in my mind that I could find people to say Hitler was a nice guy (he loved dogs, you know), and bin Laden was a nice guy, and Dick Cheney is a nice guy . . . or that Jim Wilson is “nice” and “respectful.” What I object to is taking those limited personal anecdotal experiences/opinions to outweigh a larger (IMO) bad.  I don’t give a rip about someone’s opinion of an individual on an individual basis, but Paul trotted out “Jim Wilson is a nice & respectful man” as a defense for CCM’s & the NuArt’s anti-choice block party. I personally believe that being dishonest isn’t OK, whether that dishonesty comes in the form of active lying (commission) or withholding necessary information (omission).  I find “white lies” less offensive than whoppers, but I do find lying under oath and lying by religious (of any religion) & political (of any slant) leaders to be about as bad as it gets as well as morally indefensible & disgusting. And, there’s no reason to construct an example (“If a murderer comes to your door to kill your friend hiding inside your house, isn’t it OK to lie then?”) to make this more complex than it is:  the dishonesty under oath by religious leader Jim Wilson was solely to keep a property tax exemption to which he felt entitled even though he wasn’t willing to play by the rules required for that property tax exemption. IOW, it wasn’t just lying, it was lying to steal from the rest of us.  He wasn’t stealing to feed his family or to buy medicine for a sick child; he was lying to keep a comfortable benefit to which his organization flatly wasn’t entitled, pure & simple. Nobody forced CCM to ask for a property tax exemption (and CCM did have to apply for it; it wasn’t presented on a silver platter unasked for) – if CCM didn’t want to play by the required rules for getting the privilege of a property tax exemption, it could have declined that privilege at any time. [Note to Sue:  some churches actually decline tax exemption of a federal & state level because those churches don’t want to be limited by the requirements.  It is possible to do & an excellent – IMHO – example of taking an ideological high ground.  Further, there are churches & religious institutions who have lost tax exempt status because they got caught not following the rules, something we’ll definitely not see more of with the small but vocal trend that that government is unnecessary.] But, he didn’t:  instead of being honest, Jim Wilson decided deceit & dishonesty were the way to go to continue stealing from the taxpayers.  Disgusting. Now, some of you don’t care about lying under oath or stealing from taxpayers (or perhaps you care but don’t think it’s a big deal in the scheme of things ) – that’s fine.  I don’t understand that lack of care, just like I don’t understand lots of things that are important to me (i.e, a Christian who thinks the separation of church & state is vital), but variety makes the world go ‘round. But, don’t expect me to keep silent about it when someone pulls a non sequitur singing the praises of a local religious leader I personally know to be a dishonest thief for whom the ends apparently justify the means, knowledge that’s available to anyone caring to look at the facts. Further, I’ve personally found the NuArt “ministry” to be anything “respectful” – it isn’t just to welcome students back to the area but rather to find converts & like-minded folks.  Nothing illegal there, but let’s be honest about what it is, Paul, instead of trying to paint it as something it isn’t.  And, I certainly have no problem with like-minded folks finding local friends. For those who don’t know, as the manager, Eric Engerbritson is perhaps the most “public” face of the NuArt.  A few years back (2003 – yup, I’ve still got the correspondence), we were having a discussion on V2020 about institutional corporal punishment as practiced by Logos School.  Eric contacted me privately to have a “personal” discussion about benefits of Logos whacking kids.  I very politely but firmly declined.  But, that wasn’t acceptable to Eric, and he proceeded to email me an essay that easily is in the Top Five most disturbing local writings I’ve ever read.  When he didn’t hear back from me, that wasn’t good enough, either – he contacted me yet again.  Hardly what I’d call “respectful.” Second, I know quite a few gay & lesbian young people who have more recently been victimized (and I don’t use that term lightly) by people at the NuArt.  “Hate the sin; love the sinner” only goes so far when they won’t leave you alone.  Frankly, the email & text exchanges that have been shared with me are clearly harassment, but I also can’t fault those young people for not taking legal action.  It’s heartbreaking and definitely not respectful. Finally, I offered no comment about the NuArt block party being offensive because it fell on 9/11 because I personally have found the NuArt anti-choice block party offensive since the very first one . . . but that wasn’t the topic.  Besides, no one I know has ever described it -- whether it fell on 9/11 or not – as inoffensive until this thread.  After my response to Paul about hypocrisy, someone on V2020 forwarded my post to someone no longer in the area who forwarded it to a young woman who is also no longer in the area who contacted me.  This young woman happened across one of the early anti-choice NuArt block parties when she was new to the area & in crisis.   She was “welcomed” & encouraged to go to the NuArt for “support.”  That “support” took to form of being “counseled” not to tell her pro-choice parents of her pregnancy until it was “too late for them to talk to me about abortion.  Fortunately, I didn’t listen to that advice . . . Yes, you have my permission to relate my experience now that several years have passed as long as you don’t use my name or current location since I’m no longer in Pullman.”  According to this young woman, who I’ve spoken to – as well as to her parents – on the phone, the NuArt gang wouldn’t leave her alone & she doesn’t want them to know where she is now – she left the area specifically to get away from them because they wouldn’t leave her alone.  That’s also not what I consider “respectful.” So, I’ve always found those anti-choice block parties offensive & it has nothing to do with this year’s anti-choice event happening to fall on 9/11, which is why I didn’t comment on that aspect of the thread.  But, with respect to the anti-choice block party, they’ve jumped through the appropriate hoops to get whatever permits are required.  If I lived downtown, I’d likely have a different perspective from a noise standpoint, as I’ve heard from quite a few people who do live in the area that the noise is beyond obnoxious.  As I’ve told them, their recourse is to take it up with the City. Sunil, is that clearer now? SaundraMoscow, ID The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing.~ Edmund Burke    From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of Sunil Ramalingam
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2011 8:58 PM
Cc: vision 2020
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Hypocrisy (was RE: September 11th Memorial Events) Saundra,

Where are you going with this? Is it that Paul shouldn't have a positive view of Jim based on his personal experience with the man? Do you expect him to change his views based on your experience with Jim? Or is it that he shouldn't voice his opinion lest he grow bone-weary of this thread and these attacks on him?

I frequently disagree with Paul, but I don't think he's being passive aggressive here. He just doesn't agree with you, and amazingly you haven't won him over.

I know Jim too, not in the context you do. I don't agree with his religious views. We don't talk politics, but I have to believe we disagree there too. But based on my interactions with him, I like him. That's my opinion, and I realize people I often agree with on various issues will disagree with me. That's okay, we don't have to agree on everything. You don't like him, and that's your opinion. I can live with that.

SunilFrom: v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm
To: godshatter at yahoo.com; deco at moscow.com
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 11:26:32 -0700
CC: Vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Hypocrisy (was RE: September 11th Memorial Events)So, Paul, let’s get right down to brass tacks instead of your passive-aggressive patronizing BS that I suspect I’m not the only one bone-weary of.  Simple answer:  yes or no.   Is it your position, then, that if the only way the head of a non-profit group like Jim Wilson (or Doug Wilson or Roy Atwood, for that matter) can keep the group’s tax exempt status is by being a deceitful, dishonest, disingenuous liar (either by omission or commission) year after year after year to the “secular government,” appropriate descriptions of that same person are “nice” and “respectful”? And, as was pointed out to me by an offlist correspondent, if Jim Wilson would give you the shirt off his back, remember it’s the taxpayers who are paying for it, not Jim Wilson. Like it or not, Paul, tax exemption – property or otherwise -- is a privilege granted by the government in exchange for an agreement by the exempt entity to abide by the rules -- it’s not a right.  Frankly, I think it’s an outdated model that needs to be abolished because rampant abuse has been proven time and again, both locally and around the nation.  Too, tax exemption dates back to a time when the “greater good” works were done, for the most part, in the home community – that’s clearly not the case now. Personally, I’m tickled pink that some jurisdictions (Illinois & California are two) are taking a hard look at property tax exemptions – Idaho really should follow suit rather than gutting education, going after services that help the elderly & disabled stay in their communities with decent qualities of life, providing basic assistance to the working poor and economically disadvantaged among us . . . and subsidizing the disastrous efforts of big business.  I think most folks would be absolutely shocked at how much giving away property tax exemptions costs our communities.  I’ve heard rumors of a movement in the southern part of the state advocating that as a part of the NPO & religious property tax exemption process, clear public disclosure should be required of the financial loss to the taxing jurisdiction & that information should be freely available at assessor offices, in person & online.  Personally, I don’t think it’s likely to be successful because we have too many in government who represent their churches rather than all of their constituents, but maybe I’ll be proven wrong.  Idaho has turned giving away taxpayer money to cronies into a high art form and at great cost – and waste – to the taxpayers.  Huh – what a surprise in a red state . . . not.  Saundra LundMoscow, ID The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing.~ Edmund Burke From: Paul Rumelhart [mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com] 
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2011 3:13 PM
To: Saundra Lund; 'Art Deco'
Cc: Vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: Hypocrisy (was RE: September 11th Memorial Events) Aren't all churches, all across the country, tax exempt? I don't know what you're referring to when you say he lied under oath, so I really can't comment on it. Anyway, my apologies for noticing the guy's positive qualities. Paul From: Saundra Lund <v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm>
To: 'Paul Rumelhart' <godshatter at yahoo.com>; 'Art Deco' <deco at moscow.com>
Cc: Vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2011 12:38 PM
Subject: Hypocrisy (was RE: September 11th Memorial Events)

In part, Paul wrote:“I know Jim Wilson personally.  He's an extremely nice and respectful individual, and (despite not agreeing with him on matters of faith) is as sane as anyone on this list.  He's the kind of guy that would give you the shirt off his back if he thought you needed it more than he.  If he thinks a certain way about something, it's because that's his honest interpretation from reading his Bible.” Huh – you must know a different Jim Wilson than do I because I personally don’t give a rip how “nice” or “respectful” someone may be if honesty & integrity are lacking, as is the case with Jim Wilson wanting a free tax ride & expecting government – which means you & me -- to pay for his ride.  My friends will remember how completely shocked & disappointed I was that Wilson had no difficulty being dishonest under oath.  Pathetic. Personally, I don’t think it’s OK to be disingenuous – at best – just to stick the rest of us with CCM’s tax bill, and I don’t think God thinks it’s OK, either.  Lying, cheating, stealing – or being intentionally obtuse -- are OK as long as long as you’re ripping off those who don’t share a particular faith, eh?  Not in my faith, and not in my world, it isn’t. Hypocrisy is hypocrisy is hypocrisy, and we know that it pains you, Paul, but it’s even more reprehensible when it comes from so-called “religious leaders” like Jim Wilson.  Saundra LundMoscow, ID The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing.~ Edmund Burke 
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