[Vision2020] Response to Joe, Donovan [Con't]
Art Deco
deco at moscow.com
Mon May 16 11:00:45 PDT 2011
Donovan writes:
"I just think you have too many false assumptions and false definitions of words in your arguments."
However, no specific examples of false assumptions or false definitions (which is taken to mean words used in other than their ordinary established manner) are cited even though the arguments have been presented in a numbered sequence making them easy to cite and to discuss. Therefore, Donovan's above assertion has not been shown to have any merit, but has the appearance of a rhetorical trick used when one side of a debate does not have a plausible answer to the arguments presented by the other.
Next, Donovan cites one of Zeno's paradoxes to show that anything can be proven by false assumptions and definitions. However, there is no explanation or illustration of how the arguments presented in the discussion of the Problem of Evil are structured in a similar manner to Zeno's argument that was given.
Since no evidence of false assumptions and definitions has been presented, and no demonstrations of specific invalid or fallacious arguments have been made, these two claims are without even attempted demonstrated merit.
Moving on, Donovan then writes:
"Evil, is to disobey God's command. It is not a specific act in and of itself. God created people with the ability to decide if they wish to obey or not obey. He can do that because He is all powerful. Humans create evil by doing what God has given them the ability to do, disobey God. God gave humans this ability because He wants people to freely choose to be with Him, not be forced to. Just like me and you don't want to be around just people that are forced to be.
God always does the most benevolent thing He can without eliminating our ability to disobey Him. If God prevented people from killing or hurting each other He would be doing something far less benevolent then anything else by eliminating our ability to obey and be with Him after we die."
Consider: "Evil, is to disobey God's command. It is not a specific act in and of itself." This is an example of the fallacy [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persuasive_definition] of offering a persuasive definition:
"A persuasive definition is a form of definition which purports to describe the 'true' or 'commonly accepted' meaning of a term, while in reality stipulating an uncommon or altered use, usually to support an argument for some view, or to create or alter rights, duties or crimes. … Persuasive definitions commonly appear in controversial topics such as politics, sex, and religion, as participants in emotionally-charged exchanges will sometimes become more concerned about swaying people to one side or another than expressing the unbiased facts."
Clearly, a persuasive definition is given for "evil" in above argument offered by Donovan. For most people, the real evil of the rape and murder of young children is found in the harm, pain, degradation, and other life long consequences suffered by the victims, their families, and associates, not that some alleged God was disobeyed.
There are many other problems with the above argument, including that it is full of knowledge claims about the traits of some alleged God which appear impossible to verify or even to give any cogent evidence for. Once it asserted that God is omnipotent, then it follows that God can do anything, which includes deceiving humankind without any fear of detection, therefore all knowledge claims about any other traits of God cannot be given any convincing or reliable evidence. Only those claims which contain contradictions can be conclusively refuted.
The Problem of Evil shows that asserting the existence of an omnipotent, omnificent, omnibenevolent God leads to a contradiction, and thus one or more of the premises of the argument (omnipotence, omnificence, omnibenevolence) must be false. Elementary logic.
The above argument given by Donovan asserts:
"God created people with the ability to decide if they wish to obey or not obey. He can do that because He is all powerful. Humans create evil by doing what God has given them the ability to do, disobey God. God gave humans this ability because He wants people to freely choose to be with Him, not be forced to…"
This claim does not refute the conclusions drawn from the Problem of Evil, but, in fact, supports them. This is the claim of the existence of 'freewill' or 'freedom to choose' to explain the existence of evil.
To see the fallaciousness of this claim of freewill in Donovan's assertions masquerading as an argument, consider the fundamental question engendered by the assumption that some alleged omnipotent, omnificent, omnibenevolent God created the universe: "Did God know exactly what it was doing at the moment of creation of the universe?"
If God knew exactly what all the consequences/outcomes of his act of creation were at the moment of creation, including whether humankind would "choose" to disobey him or not, then these so-called "free choices" by humankind were totally and completely predetermined by God's creation plan and execution thereof, and therefore, the freedom to choose to do anything not originally planned by God does not exist, freewill/freedom to disobey God is an illusion/delusion, and thus any argument using freewill or freedom of choice to justify the existence of evil is erroneous without any hope of redemption.
On the other hand, if God did not know whether humankind would choose to disobey him or not, then God had gaps in his knowledge at the moment of creation, and thus is not omnificent.
Hence, the conclusions drawn from the Problem of Evil withstand Donovan's perhaps quite emotionally satisfying for some, but transparently fallacious attempt to explain evil, among other things, away.
Simply put, at the point of creation, either:
A. God knew that humankind would disobey it.
Or
B. God did not know that humankind would disobey it.
If A, then all actions of humankind were part of God's creation plan, and thus all human actions were predetermined/preprogrammed including acts of disobedience from the beginning, and hence, freewill cannot and does not exist, and thus evil is totally and completely the creation and the fault of God, and therefore God is not omnibenevolent.
If B, God lacked specific knowledge of the outcomes of his creation plan at the point of creation, and therefore God is not omnificent.
Points of Interest and Corollaries
Ironically and similarly, the Bible, allegedly the Word of this omnipotent, omnificent, omnibenevolent God, offers many illustrations that God, in fact, is not omnipotent, omnificent, and omnibenevolent, but prone to error, intemperate, childish, irritable, petulant, and vengeful. These illustrations include the terminal incident in the Garden of Eden and the advent of Jesus.
Did God know at the moment of creation that those ingrates, Adam and the particularly fickle Eve, would choose to disobey God's big command? If God knew, then Adam and Eve's actions were predetermined – they had no real choice in deciding to chomp the apple, but were acting in a preprogrammed manner. If God didn't know what these naked, thankless rotters would do, then Got is not omnificent.
The Garden of Eden incident also raises extremely serious, if not fatal, objections to the assertion that God is omnibenevolent. God punishes all succeeding generations of humankind with innumerable instances of pain and suffering because two people disobeyed him by performing the heinous act of eating an apple or the symbolic act of attempting to acquire knowledge. Punishing billions of people for one misdeed of someone else, a deed over which the billions punished had no control or choice, is good? Sorry Charley, but this is next to impossible to accept as a sane assertion, let alone a plausible one. Most of us find it abhorrent when only one person is punished for some evil they did not commit, let alone billions.
Why was it necessary for Christ to appear to save humankind from their folly? Did God know at the moment of creation that people were going to turn out to be such rascally miscreants? If not, God is not omnificent. If God is, in fact, omnificent and knew exactly and completely all the outcomes of his creation plan, then all the sins and debaucheries of humankind were predetermined at the point of creation, and regardless of any claim of freewill, such evils were inexorably part of God's creation plan, pure and simple. And yet most of humankind is to suffer eternal punishment for their actions which were completely determined by God's creation plan. And this is omnibenevolence? Wonderful.
Both the alleged incident in Garden of Eden and the advent of the alleged Savior Jesus also raise serious, if not fatal objections to the claim of God's omnipotence. If God had to intervene at least at these two points of its creation, thus have to try to alter its original plan due to unanticipated events, errors, and bumblings, how can God be omnipotent? Omnipotent beings, by definition, cannot make mistakes. And if God screwed up in the creation of parts of the universe (humankind), what else has it screwed up? Can it deliver without error on any of the many fantasies of some alleged heaven?
Donovan's argument further asserts:
"God always does the most benevolent thing He can without eliminating our ability to disobey Him."
So killing millions of people, sometimes in very torturous, grim, and disgusting ways via natural disasters is "the most benevolent thing He can without eliminating our ability to disobey Him," and is good, not evil? God is doing us wondrous, great, colossal favors by causing natural disasters and murdering millions? Get real.
If God cannot prevent natural disasters, events like earthquakes, volcanoes, and tidal waves, over which humankind has no control or choice, events that have killed millions in horrible ways and deprived the living of their presence, God is not omnipotent. If God can prevent these natural disasters, God is not omnibenevolent, unless God considers these gruesome, painful deaths to be good, not evil, something that most of us do not. If God considers these events to be good and not evil, what kinds of surprises await humankind in some alleged heaven, a place of allegedly infinite good?
Consider also the following assertion:
"God gave humans this ability [freewill] because He wants people to freely choose to be with Him, not be forced to."
Poor God. God is lonely and insecure, and thus needs our praise, reassurance, and company. If so, then God is incomplete, has vulnerable human traits, and thus cannot be said to be omnipotent, but dependent on some lowly beings to satisfy its cravings for attention, love, and approbation. Further, as illustrated by characterizations in the Bible, God is tetchy, petulant, spiteful, and vengeful to the point of inflicting immense and widespread pain, suffering, and sorrow on those that displease it. These cannot be the traits of an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, or even greatly forgiving being, but are the traits generally found in maladjusted, egotistical, power hungry humans who cannot brook, and are not open and mentally healthy enough to brook dissent.
Does it make sense that some alleged being, a being with the alleged ability to create the universe with all of its complexities and to keep it operating, is so vulnerable and incomplete that it craves humankind's praise and approval, and then tests the strength of that approval by making damningly evil many things it knowingly and intentionally programmed as natural parts of humankind's biological, psychological, and social makeup? Such a view is really a damning insult to this alleged God intelligence, powers, and goodness by its believers.
So failing to show any false assumptions and definitions, failing to show that any fallacious arguments have been offered, and offering as an alternative an argument which also proves that God cannot be omnipotent, omnificent, and omnibenevolent, we await the next transparent attempt to deny reality.
[Footnote: In addition to authoring the present sacrilegious discussion of the Problem of Evil, I have been reprimanded for calling God, the alleged creator of the universe, "it" instead of "He." I am unaware of any credible argument demonstrating that the alleged creator of the universe has male genitals.]
----- Original Message -----
From: Donovan Arnold
To: Vision 2020 ; Art Deco
Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2011 6:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Response to Joe, Donovan
Wayne,
I just think you have too many false assumptions and false definitions of words in your arguments. We can always play these games, for example, in order to go from nine years of age to 10 years in age, a person must pass the half way point between 9 and 10, or 9.5 years in age. In order to get to 9.5 years in age, that person must pass the half way point between 9 and 9.5, or 9.25 years of age. This person must continue to pass through an infinite number of halfway points before reaching 10. Therefore, it only stands to reason that nobody can reach the age of 10 no matter how long they live
Addressing your flawed reasoning on God and Evil;
Evil, is to disobey God's command. It is not a specific act in and of itself. God created people with the ability to decide if they wish to obey or not obey. He can do that because He is all powerful. Humans create evil by doing what God has given them the ability to do, disobey God. God gave humans this ability because He wants people to freely choose to be with Him, not be forced to. Just like me and you don't want to be around just people that are forced to be.
God always does the most benevolent thing He can without eliminating our ability to disobey Him. If God prevented people from killing or hurting each other He would be doing something far less benevolent then anything else by eliminating our ability to obey and be with Him after we die.
I agree that we don't have freewill in everything we do. Most of our decisions are based on our genes and environment interacting. But we do have the freedom to choose to follow God, which is what He wants and the reason we are here.
Donovan Arnold
--- On Sun, 5/15/11, Art Deco <deco at moscow.com> wrote:
From: Art Deco <deco at moscow.com>
Subject: [Vision2020] Response to Joe, Donovan
To: "Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Date: Sunday, May 15, 2011, 3:12 PM
The Problem of Evil: One Formulation
Did some allegedly all-powerful (omnipotent), all-knowing (omnificent), perfectly good (omnibenevolent) God Create the Universe?
Let's assume so for the sake of argument.
If this omnipotent, omnificent, omnibenevolent God created the universe, then God is the cause/determiner of everything which happened/happens/will happen or exists in the universe because if this God is omnificent, it had exact foreknowledge of everything that would happen as a result of this omnipotent creation from the moment of creation. To say otherwise would be to contradict God's omnificence and omnipotence.
Hence, everything that happens in the universe was predetermined by God at the moment of creation. This includes all acts of humankind, and excludes completely the possibility of actual freewill/freedom to choose between performing good and/or evil acts, but not does not exclude the possibility of the fallacious appearance to humankind that freewill exists.
Simply stated: If there is something that is not predetermined (unknown to or unpredicted by God), but somehow left to chance at the moment of creation, then God is not omnificent.
If all is predetermined, the appearance that freewill exists is like a Hollywood set – possibly convincing to look at, but with naught behind it. To say there is a meaningful, left-to-chance choice is to say that God did not either cause/determine and/or know what the result of that choice would be – a denial of God's omnipotence and/or omnificence. If there is real choice (something God left to chance), then there is not predetermination, and thus a gap in God's knowledge, and therefore God would not be omnipotent and/or omnificent.
If God is omnibenevolent (perfectly good), then everything within God's control that happens, including all human acts is good, not evil: God would not knowingly and intentionally perform any evil act, any act that would result in evil, or even allow anything evil in itself to exist. Nothing evil (the opposite of good) can exist if God is omnibenevolent and in total, complete control and the determiner of all that happens in the universe.
For example, the acts of Jeffrey Dahmer where he tortured and murdered at least seventeen persons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Dahmer) were good, not evil acts.
Nor were the acts of Joseph Duncan evil acts, who among other crimes murdered three adults who were in the company of eight-year old Shasta Groene, abducted her and her nine year old brother Dylan, then raped, sexually tortured, and murdered Dylan in view of Shasta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_E._Duncan_III). But such acts, having been initially knowingly and intentionally determined by an omnipotent, omnificent, omnibenevolent God, were good, not evil acts.
Therefore, the belief by humankind that evil exists is in grievous error, if God is omnipotent, omnificent, and omnibenevolent.
The Problem of Evil occurs because many persons believe that evil acts actually exist – the acts of Dahmer and Duncan would be called evil by many. Asserting that these acts were evil (not good) and were knowingly predetermined/caused by an omnibenevolent God, who could have done otherwise, creates an obvious contradiction between God's alleged omnipotence and omnificence on one hand, and God's alleged omnibenevolence on the other.
If evil acts exist, then:
A. God, if omnibenevolent, could not have foreseen nor prevented such acts or God would have prevented them, hence God is not omnipotent and/or omnificent.
B. God could not be omnibenevolent in that God knowingly and intentionally caused/determined evil acts to occur despite that if God were omnipotent and omnificent, and thus the determiner of everything, could have prevented such acts.
C. Therefore, God cannot be omnipotent, omnificent, and omnibenevolent.
Once the premises are accepted that this alleged God is omnipotent, omnificent, and thus this God created and determined the universe as it now exists and everything it contains and all occurrences within it, then it follows that God, given all the infinite choices open to it:
A. Knowingly and willfully chose to create/determine the universe in the way it now exactly exists, and
B. This God knew exactly everything (perfectly, to the last watermelon seed) what would occur as a result of its creation.
C. Therefore, Evil is a knowing and intentional creation of God.
There is no wiggle room here, despite centuries of theological attempts to solve this disturbing-to-the-faithful dilemma by various transparent ruses.
If God is omnipotent and omnificent, then it knowingly and intentionally caused/determined all things that happened in the universe from the point of creation onward including the acts of Dahmer and Duncan. To attempt to say otherwise is to deny either the omnipotence, omnificence, or both of God. This would be in effect saying: "Poor God. God didn't quite know or quite care enough about what it was doing and/or the consequences of its act of creation, and consequently bumbled a bit. Nice try."
To further assert that evil does not exist is to deny the basic reality of humankind's experience and pervert the established use of language beyond credibility, and thereby call certain acts not evil, thus good, that most of us find extremely and horridly evil.
There are many interesting corollaries to the consequences of the Problem of Evil – that God cannot be omnipotent, omnificent, and omnibenevolent.
One is that the Bible (allegedly the Word of an alleged God), for example, acknowledges/asserts that evil acts do occur, and, in fact, asserts that God punishes and will eternally punish some people for their evil acts.
{According to the Bible didn't Jesus show up because something went radically wrong with God's creation – the super-prevalence of evil? (Isn't this assertion about Jesus an admittance by the Christian followers of God that God admits that it screwed up and needed to find a way to unscrew things [which doesn't appear to have worked either, in fact seems to have been counterproductive] another contradiction to the assertion of God's alleged omnipotence?)}
If this God is the omnipotent, omnificent creator of the universe and determiner of everything in it, then God is the determiner of all the evil acts and occurrences within it. Punishing someone for acts not even remotely within their control hardly constitutes omnibenevolence. Citing that punishing seven subsequent generations of progeny for the acts of one individual as an example of omnibenevolence indicates that such citers/believers are in greatly need of the services of competent mental health professionals and/or that their understanding of very elementary logic is egregiously defective, perhaps beyond repair.
Another problem that arises is the promise of and the nature of an afterlife. If evil does not exist, especially in the eyes of an alleged omnibenevolent God, then the good (not evil) acts of Duncan and Dahmer would not be barred from heaven, but would be allowed. The horrors experienced by Shasta Groene could be re-experienced by her and others for an eternity to provide a paradise for the Dahmers and Duncans.
If evil exists, then God cannot be omnipotent and/or omnificent. Hence, how can this God or any of its followers be confident that God can deliver on its promises of heaven and what will occur there, or even the correctness of its choices about whom will be housed there?
Another problem with the assertion of omnipotence and omnificence of some alleged God is that it makes both entreating and laudatory prayer meaningless except as phatic communication.
Why would an omnipotent, omnificent God ever change its intentions about the operation of its creation, the universe, when entreated by a much-less-wiser-than-God member of humankind? To do so would be a clear indication that God had made a misjudgment/error during the act of creation, and thus a contradiction of God's omnipotence and omnificence. Such an entreating prayer would be a gross insult to God, insinuating that God is not running things as it should and should heed the exhortations or requests of a much less knowledgeable human. Such entreating prayers are indirectly, but clearly telling God that he lacks omnipotence, omnificence, and omnibenevolence and that God better pay attention so that it gets things right.
To say that God needs or wants praise or approval for his act of creation and its consequences is attributing to God a fundamental weakness of humankind. If God is omnipotent, and thus completely and totally confident and completely assured about all its acts, why would it crave, need, or relish the approval and reassurance of one small, clearly not omnipotent or omnificent being of its creation?
A fourth problem that arises is the problem of faith in God's alleged trait of benevolence [or any other alleged trait]. If God is omnipotent (or even greatly wiser than humankind) then God could easily deceive humankind about its (God's) alleged goodness. To say that God could not deceive humankind would be to assert that humankind, or at least the believers among them, think that they are smarter than God and have him correctly pegged, clearly a contradiction to God's omnipotence. It also should be clear that asserting the omnipotence of some alleged God makes any other knowledge claims about any other of this God's alleged traits or intentions unverifiable in any way since this God could be The Great Omnipotent Deceiver, and therefore humankind would not be in a position to verify any other claims about God, or to refute them except by finding contradictions in such.
So that responses to the above, if desired, can be discussed without irrelevant side trips and emotional pleas and confessions of faith, below is the main gist of the above formulation broken down by premises, inferences, and conclusions. Those disagreeing can then state by number which they disagree with and why.
In what follows, if not explicitly stated, "God" should be read "alleged God."
Main Initial Premises.
1. There is a God.
2. God is omnipotent (all powerful, can do anything it chooses, etc).
3. God is omnificent (knows all/everything there is to know, past, present, and future including the consequences/determinants of all its acts and all the conscious and unconscious thoughts and feelings of every human).
4. God is omnibenevolent (perfectly good, abhors and would not permit anything evil (clearly not good) ever to exist or to occur, if it could prevent it.)
5. God knowingly and intentionally created the universe as we know it and exactly as it is.
Beginning of Inferences
6. If this God is omnipotent, omnificent, and omnibenevolent, and created the universe, then God is the cause/determiner of everything that happens as a result of its all-knowing and intentional act of creation from the moment of that creation. God was/is/will be in complete control and the determiner of everything at all times. To assert there is something that God is not in complete control of (something somehow left to chance) is to deny either God's omnipotence and/or omnificence.
7. Since God is omnificent, God had exact foreknowledge of everything that would occur/be determined as a result of its omnipotent act of creation. To say God didn't know exactly to a tee what would occur or be determined as a result of his creation would be to contradict God's omnificence.
8. Since God is omnipotent and omnificent, everything that happens in the universe was knowingly and intentionally predetermined from the moment of creation. Therefore, all future acts of humankind were predetermined at moment of creation.
9. If all acts of humankind are predetermined, then there can be no freedom of choice or so-called free will. If there are acts of which God did not have foreknowledge of, then God is not omnificent. If there are acts of which God is not in control of or the determiner of but are somehow left to chance, then God is not omnipotent. Therefore, the appearance of freewill is an illusion/delusion if God is omnipotent and omnificent.
10. Any act that occurs in the universe was either predetermined at the moment of creation or not. If God is omnipotent and omnificent then God intentionally and knowingly created/determined the universe to be the way it now exists. If there is something, like a human act which is not predetermined, but has been somehow left to chance (an unknown outcome), then God is not omnificent. If there is real choice, and thus an indeterminate gap in God's knowledge, there is not predetermination, and thus God is not omnificent. If there was no gap in God's knowledge/foreknowledge at the moment of creation, then all acts are therefore knowingly and intentionally predetermined by God.
11. Therefore all acts of humankind are predetermined and occur regardless of the appearance of choice/freewill, if God is omnipotent and omnificent.
12. If God is omnibenevolent (perfectly good), then every act that God has control over or determines would be good and not evil. God would not knowingly and/or intentionally perform or allow the performance of any act that was not good, that is, evil. If God is omnibenevolent (perfectly good), and thus totally and completely abhorrent to and completely opposed to evil, and this omnipotent, omnificent God was in complete control and the determiner of everything that happens in the universe from the moment of creation, then nothing evil would or could ever exist in the universe.
13. Since God is omnipotent, omnificent, and thus is in a position to unequivocally impose its omnibenevolence, then evil does not and cannot not exist. Hence, no acts by humankind are evil, but all such acts are good.
14. Since evil cannot exist if God is omnipotent, omnificent, and omnibenevolent, the belief of humankind holding that evil exists is in grievous error. Evil cannot exist if God is omnipotent, omnificent, and omnibenevolent.
15. Therefore, the acts of child torturers, rapists, and murderers are not evil, but good acts.
16. Further, since evil cannot exist, the acts called evil in the Bible, the alleged word of God, are not evil, but good. Therefore the Bible is in error, and could not have been authored, even by proxy, by an omnipotent, omnificent, and omnibenevolent God. Therefore, the Bible is not the Word of this God, but a grand, but not evil deception of God since there is no evil – everything is good.
17. The Problem of Evil occurs because many persons believe that evil exists, for example, the acts of child molesters. Since these acts of child molestation would not have occurred unless they were knowingly and intentionally predetermined by an omnipotent, omnificent God, then God cannot be omnibenevolent if child molestation, for example, is evil.
18. If evil acts exist, then:
A. God, if omnibenevolent (perfectly good), could not have foreseen nor prevented such acts or God would have, hence God is not omnipotent and/or omnificent.
B. God is not omnibenevolent in that God knowingly and intentionally caused/causes evil acts to occur since God, if omnipotent and omnificent, could have prevented such acts of which he was the determiner.
C. Therefore, God cannot be omnipotent, omnificent, and omnibenevolent.
19. Once the premises are accepted asserting that this alleged God is omnipotent, omnificent, that evil exists, and this God knowingly and intentionally created the universe and everything in it, then it follows that God, given all the infinite choices open to it:
A. Knowingly and willfully chose to create the universe in the way it now exactly exists, and
B. Hence, this God knew exactly everything (perfectly, to the last watermelon seed) what would occur as a result of its creation at the moment of creation, and evil, as we now know it is God's creation, and thus clearly demonstrates that God is not omnibenevolent.
20. We are left with the unavoidable, but unpalatable-to-some conclusion that God cannot be omnipotent, omnificent, and omnibenevolent. We are then left with a host of problems created by that this clearly demonstrated insufficiency of God, if God as presently conceived by humankind, exists at all.
Wayne A. Fox
1009 Karen Lane
PO Box 9421
Moscow, ID 83843
waf at moscow.com
208 882-7975
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