[Vision2020] Fwd: Breaking news from lmtribune.com
Joe Campbell
philosopher.joe at gmail.com
Sun May 15 07:06:09 PDT 2011
You're turning my question into a statement. I'm not charging God with
anything. I asked YOU a question.
You agree that in a particular case of a drowning child, you would be
required to help the victim. Are you depriving the victim of his free will
by doing so? I don't see how. In this case, that suggestion seems silly. And
clearly the child's life would not be rendered "meaningless" by your
assistance. So I fail to see how anything below explains why God doesn't
save every drowning child, why he doesn't save every victim of every natural
disaster. Further, I don't think there is a rational explanation available.
Again, my only point is that getting God off the hook, once questions about
the existence of evil are raised, is no easy task. Talk about "free will"
and "meaning" doesn't really help. It is more that, once the big
philosophical guns come out people's eyes gloss over and they stop asking
questions.
This is exactly why I think religious matters should be kept out of the law
(such as religious based laws against gay and lesbian marriage). The law
should deal with matters of proof and evidence and no religious belief can
be proven true. This applies to the beliefs of the atheist as well as the
theist.
On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 1:12 PM, Donovan Arnold <
donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> "So how is an omnipotent being not responsible for every drowning?" Joe
> Campbell
>
> Nobody is morally or ethically responsible to prevent a bad event if their
> action knowingly would result in something worse.
>
> Your statement charges God with the personal responsibility to save
> every victim of human and natural events. The consequences of doing so would
> render every life meaningless if all free will and ability to disobey Him
> was taken away.
>
> The only way to do away with every victim of wrong doing would be to either
> completely control every action of every person, or to eliminate every
> human. So God would have to do more harm to do the good which you demand
> of Him, which would contradict your intent. Hence, the only way for good to
> always be done is to freely follow God. This is the way I believe God
> designed it. Nobody is morally or ethically responsible to prevent a
> bad event if their action would knowingly result in something worse.
>
> Donovan Arnold
>
> --- On *Sat, 5/14/11, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fwd: Breaking news from lmtribune.com
> To: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
> Cc: "vision2020 at moscow.com" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Date: Saturday, May 14, 2011, 12:34 PM
>
>
> So how is an omnipotent being not responsible for every drowning?
>
>
>
> On May 14, 2011, at 11:23 AM, Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>>
> wrote:
>
> Joe,
>
> Considering that I am trained to save that baby, and I did nothing and
> refused, I would be charged with a felony. So, yes, very much responsible.
> Unless circumstances prevented me from attempting to do so.
>
> Donovan Arnold
>
> --- On *Sat, 5/14/11, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>
> >* wrote:
>
>
> From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>
> >
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fwd: Breaking news from lmtribune.com
> To: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> >
> Cc: <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> Date: Saturday, May 14, 2011, 6:48 AM
>
> Suppose a baby was drowning two feet from you and you do nothing to save
> it. Aren't you at least partly blameworthy for his death?
>
> On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 5:26 PM, Donovan Arnold <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
>
> Dr. Joe,
>
> It is a false dilemma to say it is either God's or the victim's fault in a
> death, injury, or economic ruin.
> It can be, and is almost always, the fault of humanity or group of humans.
> It takes a lot of people to decide, approve, build and move people into
> homes built in a flood plain, on a fault line, or at the base of a volcano
> long before a family actually moves into the house for whatever reason.
> Usually, it comes down to lots of people acting recklessly or selfishly.
> Either way it isn't God's fault and almost never 100% the fault of the
> victim. Few people would actually die from natural disasters if it were not
> for humanitiy's greed, carelessness, lack of respect for nature or not
> following God by loving your neighbor.
>
> I'm not trying to defend God from humanity's irrational judgement, as you
> jump to conclude, I am just trying to demonstrate to God that some of us are
> not so judgemential and irrational in are thinking as those that blame God
> for the consequences of humanity's greed which He clearly warned us against
> since the beginning.
>
> Donovan Arnold
>
>
> --- On *Fri, 5/13/11, Joe Campbell <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>
> philosopher.joe at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>
> >* wrote:
>
>
> From: Joe Campbell <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>
> philosopher.joe at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>>
>
>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fwd: Breaking news from <http://lmtribune.com/>
> lmtribune.com
> To: "Donovan Arnold" <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> >
> Cc: "Vision 2020" <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >
> Date: Friday, May 13, 2011, 4:01 PM
>
>
> The whole problem with this kind of answer is that it opens the gates for
> further questions. Try solving the problem of evil for tougher cases, like
> folks who lost their jobs in the recent recession. Or are you trying to say
> that ALL those who lost their jobs in the recession or who lost their lives
> in recent natural disasters "had it coming," given their foolish decisions
> about where to live, where to work, etc.? Did they ALL deserve to get fired?
> Did they ALL deserve to die? Has everyone who ever died a horrible death, or
> had something evil happen to them, deserved it? If I said the same thing
> about your "innocent children" I'm sure you'd be equally offended.
>
> I'm no atheist but it is safe to say that the "justification of evil"
> defense does not solve the problem of evil. It will not get God off the hook
> for everything. Free will only goes so far. Once you bring up these
> inadequate stories to try to defend God -- who needs no defense -- you just
> make the matter worse. Better to jump on the faith wagon BEFORE giving the
> inadequate defense.
>
> On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 2:22 PM, Donovan Arnold <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
>
> Wayne Fox quotes Ron Force,
>
> "Could they sue God if it rains?", and responds;
>
> "Based on all the misery this alleged all-powerful God has allegedly
> caused, this matter would be heard in Miniscule Claims Court."
>
> God sure is a bastard for building homes in places that have been flood
> plains for thousands of years and making people live there, and for putting
> tall easily collapsible buildings on million year old fault lines and lots
> of people walking in, around, and underneath them, and most of all, for not
> having murderers burst into flames for slaughtering innocent
> people while declaring it is in His name.
>
> Donovan Arnold
>
>
> --- On *Thu, 5/12/11, Art Deco <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com>
> deco at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com>
> >* wrote:
>
>
> From: Art Deco <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com>
> deco at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com>
> >
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fwd: Breaking news from <http://lmtribune.com/>
> lmtribune.com
> To: "Vision 2020" <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >
> Date: Thursday, May 12, 2011, 3:42 PM
>
>
> Ron Force writes:
>
> "Could they sue God if it rains?"
> Based on all the misery this alleged all-powerful God has allegedly caused,
> this matter would be heard in Miniscule Claims Court.
>
> w.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Ron Force<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rforce2003@yahoo.com>
> *To:* Tom Hansen<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=thansen@moscow.com>;
> <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 12, 2011 2:29 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Fwd: Breaking news from
> <http://lmtribune.com/>lmtribune.com
>
> The separate college commencement ceremonies were done away with under
> President White, to address the non-attendance problem at the general. Now
> all students walk across the stage to pick up diplomas, PhDs get hoods, etc.
> so if Mom wants a picture, Junior (or Jane) has to get up early on Saturday.
> The colleges have receptions following general commencement (all indoors).
>
> Law still clings to their separate ceremony, which will be at 3, outdoors
> (Could they sue God if it rains)?
>
> Ron Force
> Moscow Idaho USA
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Tom Hansen <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=thansen@moscow.com>
> thansen at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=thansen@moscow.com>
> >
> *To:* Ron Force <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rforce2003@yahoo.com>
> rforce2003 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rforce2003@yahoo.com>>;
> " <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>"
> < <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 12, 2011 2:11 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Fwd: Breaking news from lmtribune.com
>
> There are two commencements . . . one general commencement . . . and a
> commencement for each college.
>
> If this grad class is similar to my grad class of '96, they'll be too dang
> hungover to attend the general commencement and (almost) sleep through the
> college commencement (especially those grads whose last names start with
> "A").
>
> Ah, yes, the thrill and pride of the graduation walk.
>
> Tom Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
> UI '96
>
>
> On Thu, May 12, 2011 2:04 pm, Ron Force wrote:
> > I was told that several thousand plastic ponchos will be available.
> > Anyway, the severe weather isn't forecast until early afternoon, so the
> > speakers have an incentive to be brief...
> >
> > Â
> > Ron Force
> > Moscow Idaho USA
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Sam Scripter <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=MoscowSam@charter.net>
> MoscowSam at charter.net<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=MoscowSam@charter.net>
> >
> > To: Moscow Vision 2020 <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>>;
> <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=borderh@googlegroups.com>
> borderh at googlegroups.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=borderh@googlegroups.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 12:54 PM
> > Subject: [Vision2020] Fwd: Breaking news from <http://lmtribune.com/>
> lmtribune.com
> >
> >
> > Breaking News from the Lewiston Tribune Oh, my!
> >
> > This is terrible for UI Commencement, OUTDOORS!
> >
> > Does anyone on the Viz know if UI has a Plan B?
> >
> > Sam I am in Moscow . . .
> >
> >
> > Breaking News from the Lewiston Tribune
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