[Vision2020] Questions About Semi-Megaloads in Moscow

Fri May 13 10:36:34 PDT 2011

In part, Wayne wrote:

The so-called Godwin rule of "whoever invokes the Nazis first loses the
argument" is itself a fallacy.  Each argument must be considered as a whole
in relationship to the known probabilities and the argument's language and
structure.  Accusing someone of Godwinizing is used mostly, as in this case,
to distract from the issues at large, and is a invalid instance of the
genetic fallacy.  It is also a technique used to quell freedom of expression
by intimidation.

I agree!

And, I agree with the rest of Wayne's response, too.  I find the GOP
decision-makers' arrogance ("We know this discussion & decision will
generate massive opposition, so we're going to keep it secret until it's too
late for meaningful input from Idahoans because We Know Best") beneath
contempt. 

I also don't think Imperial Oil/Exxon Mobil's - and Idaho's GOP-controlled
government - initial decision to use & abuse northern Idaho for mega-load
transport was simply a decision of the easiest & least expensive way to get
their equipment to Canada.  I think a significant factor - perhaps the
principle factor - was the much smaller population that's pretty spread out
up here compared to down south. 

And, I don't think it hurt that we're so far from the Statehouse, either -
those GOP cowards knew the odds of getting huge numbers of disgusted north
Idahoans to march on the Capital was pretty slim.

Saundra Lund

Moscow, ID

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
nothing.

~ Edmund Burke

***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2011 through life plus
70 years, Saundra Lund.  Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside
the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the
author.*****

From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
On Behalf Of Art Deco
Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 9:38 AM
To: Vision 2020
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Questions About Semi-Megaloads in Moscow

All this off-the-issue wrangling about Nazis distracts from the real issue
at large:

Big money/oil secretly makes a deal with Governor Otter, who then dictates
the terms of the deal to the sheep at the IDT on matters where there are two
major areas of great public impact and concern and where the secret deal
prevented serious discussion and consideration:

1.    Impacts of this secret deal on citizens adversely impacted by the
decision in many, many ways.

2.    Impacts of enabling a project with huge adverse impacts, some of them
fatal, on many people, the environment, and the U.S. economy given the
majority interests in the tar sands projects held by China, no friend of the
environment, public health, or of the sense of fairness in international
trade, patent, or currency regulations.

The so-called Godwin rule of "whoever invokes the Nazis first loses the
argument" is itself a fallacy.  Each argument must be considered as a whole
in relationship to the known probabilities and the argument's language and
structure.  Accusing someone of Godwinizing is used mostly, as in this case,
to distract from the issues at large, and is a invalid instance of the
genetic fallacy.  It is also a technique used to quell freedom of expression
by intimidation.

I again express my disappointment at Moscow public officials not having the
knowledge, insight into their own powers, and the guts to oppose this
charade, not only because of the two areas of concern expressed above, but
also because of the public policy considerations of allowing citizens to be
the roadkill of a secret steamrolling secret deal about which they were
prevented from participating in an open, meaningful discussion and debate
over matters of serious importance to them.  So much for the party of
freedom and respect for the individual.

w.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Tom Hansen <mailto:thansen at moscow.com>  

To: Paul Rumelhart <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>  ; Saundra Lund
<mailto:v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm>  ; 'Vision 2020'
<mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>  

Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 8:17 AM

Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Questions About Semi-Megaloads in Moscow

Let me get one thing straight to Mr. Rumelhart and to the rest of you
lacking any sense of comprehension.

My reference to Nazis was NOT aimed at Wayne Krauss.

My comment, word for word, . . .

"Excusing Krauss because the megaloads weren't anywhere near US95 or
Moscow yet is like justifying the Nazis as long as they knock on somebody
else's door."

The comparison I clearly drew was between "megaloads weren't anywhere near
US95 or Moscow" and Nazis knocking "on somebody else's door."

If you really do feel like dragging this dead horse around with you, how
about taking to your buddies at teh sandbox, ok?

'Nuff said.

Now, if you will excuse me, I have four hours of Moscow Megaload Meeting
videos to edit and post.

Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho

On Fri, May 13, 2011 7:34 am, Paul Rumelhart wrote:
>
> Believe me, I'm no fan of Newt Gingrich.  All I need to know about him
> is that he pressed his first wife for divorce while she was in the
> hospital recovering from cancer-related surgery, not to mention
> committing adultery while criticizing Clinton for doing the same thing
> during the Monica Lewinski scandal.
>
> Anyway, the idea is that the first person in an argument who compares
> the other side to the Nazis loses the debate.
>
> Paul
>
> On 05/13/2011 12:00 AM, Saundra Lund wrote:
>> Huh -- I wasn't familiar with that term.
>>
>> Since you cited the Wikipedia article ("has been invoked for the
>> inappropriate use of Nazi analogies in articles or speeches"), then do
>> you agree that hyperbolic "Godwin's law" (which you obviously accept
>> since you called it) is far more appropriately applied to Nasty Newt
>> Gingrich than to Tom Hansen&  to Ted Moffett (in his "Saint Augustine:
>> "Hypocrisy is the tribute that vice pays to virtue" response)?
>>
>> Just wonderin'. . .
>>
>>
>> Saundra Lund
>> Moscow, ID
>>
>> The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to
>> do nothing.
>> ~ Edmund Burke
>>
>> ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2011 through life
>> plus 70 years, Saundra Lund.  Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or
>> reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum without the express written
>> permission of the author.*****
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Paul Rumelhart [mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 6:34 PM
>> To: Tom Hansen
>> Cc: Saundra Lund; 'Vision 2020'; 'Donovan Arnold'
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Questions About Semi-Megaloads in Moscow
>>
>>
>> Wow, you've just Godwin'd this thread by comparing this issue to the
>> Nazis. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law
>>
>> I'm not looking forward to having to wait an hour for these guys to move
>> a semi-megaload down the highway, but let's try to keep some perspective
>> here. We're talking traffic delays, possible road damage, possible
>> electricity outages, and one giant megacorp putting a little more money
>> in their giant coffers than they otherwise would. Besides, if we "win",
>> they'll just find a more expensive way of moving these things and force
>> the extra cost on to the consumers.
>>
>> I'm not saying you're not fighting the good fight, let's just keep it in
>> perspective.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> On 05/11/2011 11:02 AM, Tom Hansen wrote:
>>> Excusing Krauss because the megaloads weren't anywhere near US95 or
>>> Moscow yet is like justifying the Nazis as long as they knock on
>>> somebody else's door.
>>
>> <snip>

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