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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=white lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>In part, Wayne wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>The so-called Godwin rule of "whoever invokes the Nazis first loses the argument" is itself a fallacy. Each argument must be considered as a whole in relationship to the known probabilities and the argument's language and structure. Accusing someone of Godwinizing is used mostly, as in this case, to distract from the issues at large, and is a invalid instance of the genetic fallacy. It is also a technique used to quell freedom of expression by intimidation.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I agree!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>And, I agree with the rest of Wayne’s response, too. I find the GOP decision-makers’ arrogance (“We know this discussion & decision will generate massive opposition, so we’re going to keep it secret until it’s too late for meaningful input from Idahoans because We Know Best”) beneath contempt. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I also don’t think Imperial Oil/Exxon Mobil’s – and Idaho’s GOP-controlled government – initial decision to use & abuse northern Idaho for mega-load transport was simply a decision of the easiest & least expensive way to get their equipment to Canada. I think a significant factor – perhaps the principle factor – was the much smaller population that’s pretty spread out up here compared to down south. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>And, I don’t think it hurt that we’re so far from the Statehouse, either – those GOP cowards knew the odds of getting huge numbers of disgusted north Idahoans to march on the Capital was pretty slim.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Saundra Lund<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Moscow, ID<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>~ Edmund Burke<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2011 through life plus 70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the author.*****<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> vision2020-bounces@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Art Deco<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 13, 2011 9:38 AM<br><b>To:</b> Vision 2020<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] Questions About Semi-Megaloads in Moscow<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>All this off-the-issue wrangling about Nazis distracts from the real issue at large:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Big money/oil secretly makes a deal with Governor Otter, who then dictates the terms of the deal to the sheep at the IDT on matters where there are <strong>two major areas</strong> of great public impact and concern and where the secret deal prevented serious discussion and consideration:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><strong><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>1.</span></strong><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> Impacts of this secret deal on citizens adversely impacted by the decision in many, many ways.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><strong><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>2.</span></strong><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> Impacts of enabling a project with huge adverse impacts, some of them fatal, on many people, the environment, and the U.S. economy given the majority interests in the tar sands projects held by China, no friend of the environment, public health, or of the sense of fairness in international trade, patent, or currency regulations.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>The so-called Godwin rule of "whoever invokes the Nazis first loses the argument" is itself a fallacy. Each argument must be considered as a whole in relationship to the known probabilities and the argument's language and structure. Accusing someone of Godwinizing is used mostly, as in this case, to distract from the issues at large, and is a invalid instance of the genetic fallacy. It is also a technique used to quell freedom of expression by intimidation.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>I again express my disappointment at Moscow public officials not having the knowledge, insight into their own powers, and the guts to oppose this charade, not only because of the two areas of concern expressed above, but also because of the public policy considerations of allowing citizens to be the roadkill of a secret steamrolling secret deal about which they were prevented from participating in an open, meaningful discussion and debate over matters of serious importance to them. So much for the party of freedom and respect for the individual.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>w.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" title="thansen@moscow.com">Tom Hansen</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" title="godshatter@yahoo.com">Paul Rumelhart</a> ; <a href="mailto:v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm" title="v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm">Saundra Lund</a> ; <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" title="vision2020@moscow.com">'Vision 2020'</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sent:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Friday, May 13, 2011 8:17 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Subject:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Re: [Vision2020] Questions About Semi-Megaloads in Moscow<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal>Let me get one thing straight to Mr. Rumelhart and to the rest of you<br>lacking any sense of comprehension.<br><br>My reference to Nazis was NOT aimed at Wayne Krauss.<br><br>My comment, word for word, . . .<br><br>"Excusing Krauss because the megaloads weren't anywhere near US95 or<br>Moscow yet is like justifying the Nazis as long as they knock on somebody<br>else's door."<br><br>The comparison I clearly drew was between "megaloads weren't anywhere near<br>US95 or Moscow" and Nazis knocking "on somebody else's door."<br><br>If you really do feel like dragging this dead horse around with you, how<br>about taking to your buddies at teh sandbox, ok?<br><br>'Nuff said.<br><br>Now, if you will excuse me, I have four hours of Moscow Megaload Meeting<br>videos to edit and post.<br><br>Tom Hansen<br>Moscow, Idaho<br><br><br><br><br>On Fri, May 13, 2011 7:34 am, Paul Rumelhart wrote:<br>><br>> Believe me, I'm no fan of Newt Gingrich. All I need to know about him<br>> is that he pressed his first wife for divorce while she was in the<br>> hospital recovering from cancer-related surgery, not to mention<br>> committing adultery while criticizing Clinton for doing the same thing<br>> during the Monica Lewinski scandal.<br>><br>> Anyway, the idea is that the first person in an argument who compares<br>> the other side to the Nazis loses the debate.<br>><br>> Paul<br>><br>> On 05/13/2011 12:00 AM, Saundra Lund wrote:<br>>> Huh -- I wasn't familiar with that term.<br>>><br>>> Since you cited the Wikipedia article ("has been invoked for the<br>>> inappropriate use of Nazi analogies in articles or speeches"), then do<br>>> you agree that hyperbolic "Godwin's law" (which you obviously accept<br>>> since you called it) is far more appropriately applied to Nasty Newt<br>>> Gingrich than to Tom Hansen& to Ted Moffett (in his "Saint Augustine:<br>>> "Hypocrisy is the tribute that vice pays to virtue" response)?<br>>><br>>> Just wonderin'. . .<br>>><br>>><br>>> Saundra Lund<br>>> Moscow, ID<br>>><br>>> The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to<br>>> do nothing.<br>>> ~ Edmund Burke<br>>><br>>> ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2011 through life<br>>> plus 70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or<br>>> reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum without the express written<br>>> permission of the author.*****<br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>> -----Original Message-----<br>>> From: Paul Rumelhart [mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com]<br>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 6:34 PM<br>>> To: Tom Hansen<br>>> Cc: Saundra Lund; 'Vision 2020'; 'Donovan Arnold'<br>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Questions About Semi-Megaloads in Moscow<br>>><br>>><br>>> Wow, you've just Godwin'd this thread by comparing this issue to the<br>>> Nazis. See <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law</a><br>>><br>>> I'm not looking forward to having to wait an hour for these guys to move<br>>> a semi-megaload down the highway, but let's try to keep some perspective<br>>> here. We're talking traffic delays, possible road damage, possible<br>>> electricity outages, and one giant megacorp putting a little more money<br>>> in their giant coffers than they otherwise would. Besides, if we "win",<br>>> they'll just find a more expensive way of moving these things and force<br>>> the extra cost on to the consumers.<br>>><br>>> I'm not saying you're not fighting the good fight, let's just keep it in<br>>> perspective.<br>>><br>>> Paul<br>>><br>>> On 05/11/2011 11:02 AM, Tom Hansen wrote:<br>>>> Excusing Krauss because the megaloads weren't anywhere near US95 or<br>>>> Moscow yet is like justifying the Nazis as long as they knock on<br>>>> somebody else's door.<br>>><br>>> <snip><br><br><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></body></html>