[Vision2020] evil in Tucson

Thu Jan 13 21:34:11 PST 2011

Good evening Saundra,

My intentions and dialogue on the viz has been and will be mostly moderate. I admit to conservative tones, but by no means find myself a  true conservative. I still find the onslaught mostly by the left, at the beginning to the Tuscan tragedy, to be nothing more than a political ploy. 

Why is it so hard to fathom that all aspects of our society could/can/have contributed to this horrific act. If it wasn't political, why didn't Lauder's song on his website by Drowning pool "Let the bodies hit the floor", come into question. Again, I feel that our society is violent based. Everything from sports all the way to politics. If rhetoric is to be questioned why can't everything else? For the record, music has, Ozzy Ozbourne, Ice-t, NWA. All these artists have been in court over this same discourse. Why shouldn't we talk about it, if rhetoric is to be blamed as an excuse?

For the record I hate this talk. I think my prior posts(mostly around election time) show I'm a man of my word. I am a man though, one with error. 

So, 

Thus, I’m sorry to see that you’ve fallen into the very “division” trap you entreated us to guard against.  There’s no other explanation for your second paragraph while choosing to remain stunningly silent with respect to the gross abuses of those on the right use this tragedy to advance their political agendas & to ridicule those on the left while specifically “calling out” those you think are on the left for doing so

Yes, it seems our nation is divided. Our president even stated the same notion. With our division we need unity. Blaming this tragedy on rhetoric solely from the right is not unity. I do feel some on this site and some media sites jumped to a conclusion which does nothing but bring up false claims of "directly to blame" or "directly held responsible" type antics.

I’m sure you didn’t mean to imply those on the right haven’t proposed gun control & restricting freedom of speech following the Tucson tragedy, right?  Surely you’re aware, for instance, that Republican Peter King is the one advocating that people shouldn’t be able to carry within 1000 feet of federal officials, and that he’s gotten other Republican (as well as Democrat) support?

Knee jerk reaction that has no way of passing. I'm also aware of two other bills proposed by Democrats to limit magazine capacity and violent symbology. I personally don't have a problem with limiting mags to 15 instead of 33 rnds. Violent symbols will be far more difficult to regulate. A bill I don't agree with.

And, you’re aware, of course, that the emergency legislation passed in Arizona to restrict the free speech of the notorious Westboro Baptist Church was unanimously passed by a Republican Arizona legislature & signed into law by a Republican governor, correct?  Do you disagree with that restriction on the freedom of speech?

Can we do away with burning the flag too then? Damned if I do damned If I don't.

I am pointing fingers to all aspects of society. 

With that said, I stand by my first point. WE ALL NEED UNITY. Both sides are guilty of violent rhetoric. What we need is to put this aside and stand together.

Matt

 From: v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm

To: mattd2107 at hotmail.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] evil in Tucson
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 20:27:03 -0800

Hi Matt,

I’ll start out by saying that I haven’t been reading most (95%+) V2020 posts recently, mostly because there have just been so many of them, but also because just exactly what I thought was going to happen here has, in fact, happened, and I opted not to spend my time reading the endless multitude of “Yeah, but your side is worse than my side” back & forths.  I’m not saying that the many who want to play that game with respect to the tragedy in Tucson shouldn’t be having the (futile, IMHO) doing so . . . just that I didn’t want to read it.

I will say that I have looked at a very few posts & was pleasantly surprised to see some shining exceptions (again, IMHO) to the “Yeah, but” back & forth, and I found your two previous posts in that category.

.

It’s a darn shame and I’m disappointed, Matt, particularly given the moronic antics of Sarah Palin spinning like hell to make herself the victim in this tragedy . . . I’ve seen nothing more nauseating from either side.  It’s flatly disgusting & un-American – not to mention blatantly dishonest (with respect particularly to her pathetic attempt at revisionist history to explain away her despicable map) , but most Americans have learned to expect nothing more from her.  That, however, doesn’t excuse her inexcusable behavior.  Or, how about Boehner bailing on the memorial service to instead attend a posh “reception” (aka fundraiser) thrown by his PAC?  It seems to me that’s an excellent example of partisanship at its lowest and taking full advantage of the tragedy advance his political agenda & even make money off of it.

When you call out what you find offensive one side – and that also applies to your third paragraph -- while keeping quiet about gross exploitation on the other side, you’re only showing your hypocrisy, no matter how noble your earlier sentiments.

Further, you wrote:
“I don't agree with some, using this tragedy for further advancements of political agendas and to ridicule the right. Already, talks of gun control have been mentioned. Along with freedom of speech restrictions.”

Perhaps I’m misunderstanding what you meant to say above & reading more into it, but that’s the plain reading of what you wrote.  Feel free to restate if you like.

And, you’re aware, of course, that the emergency legislation passed in Arizona to restrict the free speech of the notorious Westboro Baptist Church was unanimously passed by a Republican Arizona legislature & signed into law by a Republican governor, correct?  Do you disagree with that restriction on the freedom of speech?

Saundra Lund
Moscow, ID

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing.
~ Edmund Burke

***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2010 through life plus 70 years, Saundra Lund.  Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the author.*****

From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of Matt Decker
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 7:43 AM
To: philosopher.joe at gmail.com
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] evil in Tucson

So we both agree that both sides need to stop or tone down this violent biased rhetoric.I just don't see it happening any time soon though. Our society is based on it.

I don't agree with some, using this tragedy for further advancements of political agendas and to ridicule the right. Already, talks of gun control have been mentioned. Along with freedom of speech restrictions. How such speech as "rallying the troops" or "it's battle time", should be held accountable. Personally I don't like it, but don't feel should be held accountable.

When this story first came out, some on this site mentioned how the shooting was probably a radical christian, or how Palin should be held accountable. There were no theories of how this guy was nuts or how our society in a collective manner might occasionally mold a twisted or naive individual. How our music, video gamse, parenting, schooling, sports, backgrounds, etc etc, help mold each individual. Our hope is that each citizen has the ability to separate talk from action.

I believe Paul mentioned earlier that we shouldn't jump to conclusions. I agreed. When the Hason shooting occurred, the news media stated the same. Now though, since the alleged shooter is a white guy some have used this tragedy for gain. These motives are what I can't stand and feel helps divide our nation further. Never let a tragedy go to waste right?

My hope from this terrible tragedy, is that both sides will realize that this talk does no good. That they will show leadership and take the higher ground and stop the violent based rhetoric.

Matt
> From: philosopher.joe at gmail.com
> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2011 15:50:26 -0800
> To: mattd2107 at hotmail.com
> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] evil in Tucson
> 
> Here is a dilemma.
> 
> Either the doom and gloom rhetoric of the right works to get them more votes or it does not.
> 
> If it doesn't work, it is useless and offensive and should be stopped because it isn't doing any good and is offensive.
> 
> If it does succeed in getting more people to come to the polls, then you're going to have to explain how its influence stops there.
> 
> How does the rhetoric succeed in getting folks to vote but does not influence human action in any other way?
> 
> That would be quite a psychological story to tell! Please tell me how it goes!
> 
> I opt for the first option. It is useless insulting garbage that is pulling our country apart. Both sides should stop.
> 
> Or was your previous post just a joke?
> 
> 
> On Jan 11, 2011, at 2:42 PM, Matt Decker <mattd2107 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Well I know the media would be saying we shouldn't jump to conclusions, just as they with the Hasan shootings.
> > 
> > Question:
> > 
> > If rhetoric is to be held accountable, how can we do that with first amendment? 
> > 
> > Should musicians be held accountable? Video game makers?
> > 
> > The alleged shooter like to listen to Drowning Pool's Let the bodies hit the floor.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2011 10:58:31 -0800
> > > From: thansen at moscow.com
> > > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] evil in Tucson
> > > 
> > > Question:
> > > 
> > > What would we be discussing if the only thing we knew about the shooter
> > > was that he was a foreign exchange student attending the University of
> > > Arizona and that his name is Abdul Zahir?
> > > 
> > > What then?
> > > 
> > > Tom Hansen
> > > Moscow, Idaho
> > > 
> > > "The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to change
> > > and the Realist adjusts his sails."
> > > 
> > > - Unknown
> > > 
> > > 
> > > =======================================================
> > > List services made available by First Step Internet, 
> > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. 
> > > http://www.fsr.net 
> > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > =======================================================
> > =======================================================
> > List services made available by First Step Internet, 
> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. 
> > http://www.fsr.net 
> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > =======================================================
> 
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet, 
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. 
> http://www.fsr.net 
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> ======================================================= 		 	   		  
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20110113/970d1d00/attachment-0001.html 