[Vision2020] Textbook and media prices (was: Professor Campbell)
Joe Campbell
philosopher.joe at gmail.com
Sun Feb 27 15:30:39 PST 2011
Everyone gets paid more and more each year. It is called "inflation." We pay
more and more for hamburgers each year and this is justified because its
produced better hamburger-eaters!?! Again, you have these thoughts about
education that don't project well if you take them to any other arena.
You write: "Education improves because classrooms are smaller, teachers have
resources to do their jobs, the teachers are dedicated to the progress of
the students, and the concerns and issues facing teachers are addressed."
Wait a minute. Is your "solution" to lower classroom size? Is the idea that
if we cut salaries 5% and pay no one more than 70,000 that we be able to
re-coup enough savings so that we get down to a classroom size where it will
matter, say, 20 students?
For one thing, class room sizes is not getting smaller, it is getting
larger. And cutting salaries isn't going to help you. Sure you can get a
bunch of people to teach classes to 20 students but it would be a whole lot
more efficient to just get one gal to teach 250 students; get a few TAs to
do the grading. Do the math: your solution is NOT going to save money in the
long run. If it were that easy, someone would have already thought to that
"solution."
You need to have a little more faith and trust that the folks in higher ed
are in it for the right reasons and that nonetheless it is a competitive
market. People are payed what they are paid because that is the going rate.
Folks on the Palouse are already underpaid relative to their colleagues at
peer institutions. And believe it or not the administrations of both
universities are filled with intelligent people, folks who are also
interested in education in the same way that the K-12 teachers you love so
dearly are interested in education, people who are busting their humps
trying to figure out how to deal with this situation.
Best, Joe
On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 2:52 PM, Donovan Arnold <
donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Joe,
>
> We do pay professors more and more each year yet it hasn't provided smarter
> students.
>
> There is no strong correlation, as you claim, nor have you produced any
> evidence or study that shows that paying educators more money results in
> higher educated students. Idaho ranks on the bottom for K-12 funding of
> teacher salaries, yet it ranks closer to the top in state rankings.
>
> Education improves because classrooms are smaller, teachers have resources
> to do their jobs, the teachers are dedicated to the progress of the
> students, and the concerns and issues facing teachers are addressed. Adding
> more zeros on the end of their check doesn't make a teacher any better. How
> many zeros we add is based on what the community can afford, not what they
> are worth, as no community could afford the true value of one single
> elementary teacher.
>
> I don't know what rock you have been hiding under, however, there is no
> shortage of studies indicating that the US is slipping in education rankings
> and test scores. Here are few of them;
>
>
>
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/07/us-falls-in-world-education-rankings_n_793185.html
>
>
>
> http://www.realonlinedegrees.com/education-rankings-by-country/
>
>
>
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/dec/07/world-education-rankings-maths-science-reading
>
>
>
>
> http://www.geographic.org/country_ranks/educational_score_performance_country_ranks_2009_oecd.html
>
>
>
> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/09/13/national/main838207.shtml
>
> "Third, name one other business that adopts your 'methodology'."
>
> That is part of the issue with many in your generation's thinking,
> everything is about business and making dollars, not the intrinsic value of
> an education or producing happy healthy independent productive people. But I
> don't know any business that pays more for poorer performance. Do you?
>
> Donovan Arnold
>
>
>
>
> --- On *Sun, 2/27/11, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Textbook and media prices (was: Professor
> Campbell)
> To: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
> Cc: "vision2020 at moscow.com" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Date: Sunday, February 27, 2011, 7:20 AM
>
>
> First, we haven't tried paying people more yet.
>
> Second, your assumption that the quality of education is bad is
> unsupported; just as is your claim that some professors are overpaid. These
> aren't arguments as much as unsupported opinions.
>
> Third, name one other business that adopts your "methodology."
>
>
>
> On Feb 27, 2011, at 6:10 AM, Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>>
> wrote:
>
> Joe,
>
> Paying professors more certainly hasn't helped the quality of education,
> has it? Nor does paying a professor more money make them any smarter or
> better. So why not put the money where it would be most effective. But
> again, it isn't just overpaid professors, it is also administrators that
> misspend public funds including overpaying themselves.
>
> I think the Palouse has a lot to offer. Good K-12 schools, safe
> neighborhoods, great public parks and wonderful people, not to mention the
> beauty of Idaho and no 45 minute commute to work. Things a higher salary
> cannot buy in other areas that offer comparable salaries.
>
> Donovan Arnold
>
> --- On *Sat, 2/26/11, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>
> >* wrote:
>
>
> From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>
> >
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Textbook and media prices (was: Professor
> Campbell)
> To: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> >
> Cc: "vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>"
> <vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >
> Date: Saturday, February 26, 2011, 7:36 AM
>
> The point is you're already unhappy with the quality of professors.
> Please tell me how your plan will improve things.
>
> Exactly how will paying professors less improve the quality of education?
>
>
>
> On Feb 26, 2011, at 7:16 AM, Donovan Arnold <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>>
> wrote:
>
> Joe,
>
> Thanks for the dialogue. There are limits on what doctors can charge for
> medicare and medicaid whom represent the poorest and most vulnerable of our
> society. I think there should be limits on what someone can charge when
> something is either a necessity of living or is subsidized by the taxpayer.
> If it is neither, then I think you can charge what you wish. I don't think
> UI and WSU exist to hire the best and brightest professors, as the people
> of Idaho and Washington don't need it. What they need is a quality
> higher education they can afford.
>
>
> Donovan Arnold
>
>
> --- On *Fri, 2/25/11, Joe Campbell <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>
> philosopher.joe at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>
> >* wrote:
>
>
> From: Joe Campbell <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>
> philosopher.joe at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>
> >
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Textbook and media prices (was: Professor
> Campbell)
> To: "Donovan Arnold" <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> >
> Cc: " <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>"
> < <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >
> Date: Friday, February 25, 2011, 2:38 PM
>
> In a free market place, what counts as an "unfair profit"? Do you think
> that the money that doctors are allowed to charge the uninsured is "fair"?
> Do you think the price for baseball tickets is fair or unfair? Are we
> required to cap textbooks and education costs but not doctor fees?
>
> I have to tell your overall education "plan" is unlikely to get the best
> and the brightest higher ed teachers: 5% pay-cut, no more than $70,000
> per-year, a limit on how much they can charge for their own textbooks, etc.
>
>
> On Feb 25, 2011, at 10:46 AM, Donovan Arnold <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com><http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>>
> wrote:
>
> It seems to me that some people are trying to make unfair profit by
> raking advantage of poor struggling students when they charge so much for
> textbooks. What is sad is that part of the rip off is coming from people
> that are so-called pro-education and already doing well without the income
> of ripping off students and making education less accessible for many
> people. Education has become a for profit business with limited access to
> most people, not a priority any longer for our society as it should be and
> once was.
>
> Donovan Arnold
>
> --- On *Fri, 2/25/11, Joe Campbell <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com><http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>
> philosopher.joe at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>
> >* wrote:
>
>
> From: Joe Campbell <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com><http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>
> philosopher.joe at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>
> >
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Textbook and media prices (was: Professor
> Campbell)
> To: "Kenneth Marcy" <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@frontier.com><http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@frontier.com>
> kmmos1 at frontier.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@frontier.com>
> >
> Cc: " <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com><http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>"
> < <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com><http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >
> Date: Friday, February 25, 2011, 4:33 AM
>
> Keep in mind that the libraries, which Donovan mentions, are part of that
> captive audience.
>
>
>
> On Feb 24, 2011, at 11:54 PM, Kenneth Marcy <<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@frontier.com><http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@frontier.com><http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@frontier.com>
> kmmos1 at frontier.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@frontier.com>>
> wrote:
>
> > On Thursday 24 February 2011 21:22:25 Donovan Arnold wrote:
> >> Why are college books five times the price of other books? Who has $70
> for
> >> each book? Especially when you can get all that information for free
> >> online or at your local library.
> >
> > College books are more expensive because, historically, publishers have
> > accustomed themselves to semi-captive markets -- if they can capture
> adopting
> > professors, they (authors and publishers) can augment their revenues from
>
> > students required to avail themselves of the texts. Semi-captive markets
> are
> > not competitive, so suppliers can raise prices. I suspect this isn't
> news.
> >
> > You may notice that some of the MIT Press books have higher prices, say
> $70,
> > for cloth covered books, and lower prices, say $35, for paperback covers
> over
> > the same published materials. You don't have to pay the higher price if
> the
> > paperback cover is acceptable.
> >
> > It's true that some philosophical texts have been available for as long
> as
> > dozens of centuries. Many of those texts are readily available. Various
> texts
> > from different authors have content specific, if not unique, to that text
> and
> > its distinct author. A particular text from a particular author may not
> be
> > represented by any other author's text, so one may have to have that
> specific
> > text to understand what that particular author thought and wrote on that
> > subject at that time. So, if one wishes to read specific writings
> associated
> > with participants in the annual philosophy conference on the Palouse,
> one
> > needs these volumes, not just general search access to the Internet or a
> local
> > library card.
> >
> > On the other hand, sometimes information that has been around for
> centuries,
> > and is available if one looks for it, can be repackaged in ways
> attractive to
> > professors and expensive for students, to the distinct benefit of
> publishers
> > and their authors. For example, James Stewart is a Canadian math
> professor and
> > author of many books, most notably a series of calculus books that have
> earned
> > him quite a bit of money. He chose to invest a large amount of it in his
> > personal residence, which he calls Integral House. Here is a link to a
> Wall
> > Street Journal article with a description and images of the residence.
> >
> >
> <http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123872378357585295.html#articleTabs%3Darticle><http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123872378357585295.html#articleTabs%3Darticle><http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123872378357585295.html#articleTabs%3Darticle>
> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123872378357585295.html#articleTabs%3Darticle
> >
> > Here is a link to a MAA interview with James Stewart:
> >
> > <http://www.maa.org/news/061809stewart.html><http://www.maa.org/news/061809stewart.html><http://www.maa.org/news/061809stewart.html>
> http://www.maa.org/news/061809stewart.html
> >
> > I suppose if one is into jealousy, envy, and schadenfreude one might take
> some
> > enjoyment from the thought of the Canadian real estate market taking its
> toll
> > on his investment, but if he's not in the market to sell his home any
> time
> > soon, it's probably a moot point to anyone but the most wicked and cruel.
> >
> > Investment diversity remains the recommended strategy, despite his
> mansion.
> >
> >
> > Ken
> >
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