Everyone gets paid more and more each year. It is called "inflation." We pay more and more for hamburgers each year and this is justified because its produced better hamburger-eaters!?! Again, you have these thoughts about education that don't project well if you take them to any other arena.<br>
<br>You write: "Education improves because classrooms are smaller, teachers have
resources to do their jobs, the teachers are dedicated to the progress
of the students, and the concerns and issues facing teachers are
addressed."<br><br>Wait a minute. Is your "solution" to lower classroom size? Is the idea that if we cut salaries 5% and pay no one more than 70,000 that we be able to re-coup enough savings so that we get down to a classroom size where it will matter, say, 20 students?<br>
<br>For one thing, class room sizes is not getting smaller, it is getting larger. And cutting salaries isn't going to help you. Sure you can get a bunch of people to teach classes to 20 students but it would be a whole lot more efficient to just get one gal to teach 250 students; get a few TAs to do the grading. Do the math: your solution is NOT going to save money in the long run. If it were that easy, someone would have already thought to that "solution."<br>
<br>You need to have a little more faith and trust that the folks in higher ed are in it for the right reasons and that nonetheless it is a competitive market. People are payed what they are paid because that is the going rate. Folks on the Palouse are already underpaid relative to their colleagues at peer institutions. And believe it or not the administrations of both universities are filled with intelligent people, folks who are also interested in education in the same way that the K-12 teachers you love so dearly are interested in education, people who are busting their humps trying to figure out how to deal with this situation.<br>
<br>Best, Joe<br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 2:52 PM, Donovan Arnold <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td style="font: inherit;" valign="top"><div>Joe,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>We do pay professors more and more each year yet it hasn't provided smarter students.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>There is no strong correlation, as you claim, nor have you produced any evidence or study that shows that paying educators more money results in higher educated students. Idaho ranks on the bottom for K-12 funding of teacher salaries, yet it ranks closer to the top in state rankings. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Education improves because classrooms are smaller, teachers have resources to do their jobs, the teachers are dedicated to the progress of the students, and the concerns and issues facing teachers are addressed. Adding more zeros on the end of their check doesn't make a teacher any better. How many zeros we add is based on what the community can afford, not what they are worth, as no community could afford the true value of one single elementary teacher.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I don't know what rock you have been hiding under, however, there is no shortage of studies indicating that the US is slipping in education rankings and test scores. Here are few of them;</div>
<div> </div>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/07/us-falls-in-world-education-rankings_n_793185.html" target="_blank"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/07/us-falls-in-world-education-rankings_n_793185.html</font></a>
</p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font>
</p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://www.realonlinedegrees.com/education-rankings-by-country/" target="_blank"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">http://www.realonlinedegrees.com/education-rankings-by-country/</font></a>
</p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font>
</p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/dec/07/world-education-rankings-maths-science-reading" target="_blank"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/dec/07/world-education-rankings-maths-science-reading</font></a>
</p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font>
</p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://www.geographic.org/country_ranks/educational_score_performance_country_ranks_2009_oecd.html" target="_blank"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">http://www.geographic.org/country_ranks/educational_score_performance_country_ranks_2009_oecd.html</font></a>
</p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font>
</p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/09/13/national/main838207.shtml" target="_blank"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/09/13/national/main838207.shtml</font></a>
</p><div>
<div> </div>
<div></div>
<div> "Third, name one other business that adopts your 'methodology'."</div>
<div> </div>
<div>That is part of the issue with many in your generation's thinking, everything is about business and making dollars, not the intrinsic value of an education or producing happy healthy independent productive people. But I don't know any business that pays more for poorer performance. Do you?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Donovan Arnold<div class="im"><br><br><br><br>--- On <b>Sun, 2/27/11, Joe Campbell <i><<a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>></i></b> wrote:<br></div></div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;"><div class="im"><br>From: Joe Campbell <<a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Textbook and media prices (was: Professor Campbell)<br>To: "Donovan Arnold" <<a href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" target="_blank">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a>><br>Cc: "<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>" <<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>><br>
</div>Date: Sunday, February 27, 2011, 7:20 AM<div><div></div><div class="h5"><br><br>
<div>
<div>First, we haven't tried paying people more yet.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Second, your assumption that the quality of education is bad is unsupported; just as is your claim that some professors are overpaid. These aren't arguments as much as unsupported opinions.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Third, name one other business that adopts your "methodology."<br><br><br></div>
<div><br>On Feb 27, 2011, at 6:10 AM, Donovan Arnold <<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
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<div>Joe,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Paying professors more certainly hasn't helped the quality of education, has it? Nor does paying a professor more money make them any smarter or better. So why not put the money where it would be most effective. But again, it isn't just overpaid professors, it is also administrators that misspend public funds including overpaying themselves.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I think the Palouse has a lot to offer. Good K-12 schools, safe neighborhoods, great public parks and wonderful people, not to mention the beauty of Idaho and no 45 minute commute to work. Things a higher salary cannot buy in other areas that offer comparable salaries. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Donovan Arnold<br><br>--- On <b>Sat, 2/26/11, Joe Campbell <i><<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>></i></b> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;"><br>From: Joe Campbell <<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Textbook and media prices (was: Professor Campbell)<br>To: "Donovan Arnold" <<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a>><br>
Cc: "<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>" <<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>><br>
Date: Saturday, February 26, 2011, 7:36 AM<br><br>
<div>
<div>The point is you're already unhappy with the quality of professors. Please tell me how your plan will improve things.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div> Exactly how will paying professors less improve the quality of education?<br><br><br></div>
<div><br>On Feb 26, 2011, at 7:16 AM, Donovan Arnold <<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br></div>
<div></div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
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<div>Joe,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Thanks for the <span><span><span><span>dialogue</span></span></span></span>. There are limits on what doctors can charge for medicare and medicaid whom represent the poorest and most vulnerable of our society. I think there should be limits on what someone can charge when something is either a necessity of living or is subsidized by the taxpayer. If it is neither, then I think you can charge what you wish. I don't think <span><span>UI</span></span> and WSU exist to hire the best and brightest professors, as the people of Idaho and Washington don't need it. What they need is a quality higher education they can afford. </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Donovan Arnold</div>
<div><br><br>--- On <b>Fri, 2/25/11, Joe Campbell <i><<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>></i></b> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;"><br>From: Joe Campbell <<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Textbook and media prices (was: Professor Campbell)<br>To: "Donovan Arnold" <<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a>><br>
Cc: "<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>" <<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>><br>
Date: Friday, February 25, 2011, 2:38 PM<br><br>
<div>
<div>
<div>In a free market place, what counts as an "unfair profit"? Do you think that the money that doctors are allowed to charge the uninsured is "fair"? Do you think the price for baseball tickets is fair or unfair? Are we required to cap textbooks and education costs but not doctor fees?<br>
<br>I have to tell your overall education "plan" is unlikely to get the best and the brightest higher ed teachers: 5% pay-cut, no more than $70,000 per-year, a limit on how much they can charge for their own textbooks, etc.<br>
<br></div>
<div><br>On Feb 25, 2011, at 10:46 AM, Donovan Arnold <<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br></div>
<div></div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
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<div>It seems to me that some people are trying to make unfair profit by raking advantage of poor struggling students when they charge so much for textbooks. What is sad is that part of the rip off is coming from people that are so-called pro-education and already doing well without the income of ripping off students and making education less accessible for many people. Education has become a for profit business with limited access to most people, not a priority any longer for our society as it should be and once was. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Donovan Arnold<br><br>--- On <b>Fri, 2/25/11, Joe Campbell <i><<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>></i></b> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;"><br>From: Joe Campbell <<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Textbook and media prices (was: Professor Campbell)<br>To: "Kenneth Marcy" <<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@frontier.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@frontier.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@frontier.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">kmmos1@frontier.com</a>><br>
Cc: "<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>" <<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>><br>
Date: Friday, February 25, 2011, 4:33 AM<br><br>
<div>Keep in mind that the libraries, which Donovan mentions, are part of that captive audience. <br><br><br><br>On Feb 24, 2011, at 11:54 PM, Kenneth Marcy <<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@frontier.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@frontier.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@frontier.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kmmos1@frontier.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">kmmos1@frontier.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>> On Thursday 24 February 2011 21:22:25 Donovan Arnold wrote:<br>>> Why are college books five times the price of other books? Who has $70 for<br>>> each book? Especially when you can get all that information for free<br>
>> online or at your local library.<br>> <br>> College books
are more expensive because, historically, publishers have <br>> accustomed themselves to semi-captive markets -- if they can capture adopting <br>> professors, they (authors and publishers) can augment their revenues from <br>
> students required to avail themselves of the texts. Semi-captive markets are <br>> not competitive, so suppliers can raise prices. I suspect this isn't news.<br>> <br>> You may notice that some of the MIT Press books have higher prices, say $70, <br>
> for cloth covered books, and lower prices, say $35, for paperback covers over <br>> the same published materials. You don't have to pay the higher price if the <br>> paperback cover is acceptable.<br>> <br>
> It's true that some philosophical texts have been available for as long as <br>> dozens of centuries. Many of those texts are readily available. Various texts <br>> from different authors have content specific, if not unique, to that text
and <br>> its distinct author. A particular text from a particular author may not be <br>> represented by any other author's text, so one may have to have that specific <br>> text to understand what that particular author thought and wrote on that <br>
> subject at that time. So, if one wishes to read specific writings associated <br>> with participants in the annual philosophy conference on the <span>Palouse</span>, one <br>> needs these volumes, not just general search access to the Internet or a local <br>
> library card.<br>> <br>> On the other hand, sometimes information that has been around for centuries, <br>> and is available if one looks for it, can be repackaged in ways attractive to <br>> professors and expensive for students, to the distinct benefit of publishers <br>
> and their authors. For example, James Stewart is a Canadian math professor and <br>> author of many books, most notably a series of
calculus books that have earned <br>> him quite a bit of money. He chose to invest a large amount of it in his <br>> personal residence, which he calls Integral House. Here is a link to a Wall <br>> Street Journal article with a description and images of the residence.<br>
> <br>> <a href="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123872378357585295.html#articleTabs%3Darticle" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123872378357585295.html#articleTabs%3Darticle" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123872378357585295.html#articleTabs%3Darticle" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123872378357585295.html#articleTabs%3Darticle" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123872378357585295.html#articleTabs%3Darticle</a><br>
> <br>> Here is a link t<span>o a</span> MAA interview with James Stewart:<br>> <br>> <a href="http://www.maa.org/news/061809stewart.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://www.maa.org/news/061809stewart.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://www.maa.org/news/061809stewart.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://www.maa.org/news/061809stewart.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.maa.org/news/061809stewart.html</a> <br>
> <br>> I suppose if one is into jealousy, envy, and schadenfreude one might take some <br>> enjoyment from the thought of the Canadian real estate market taking its toll <br>> on his investment, but if he's not in the market to sell his home any time <br>
> soon, it's probably a moot point to anyone but the most wicked and cruel.<br>> <br>> Investment diversity remains the recommended strategy, despite his mansion.<br>> <br>> <br>> Ken<br>> <br>> =======================================================<br>
> List services made available by
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