[Vision2020] Joe and Arrogance

[lfalen]

-----Original message-----
From: Joe Campbell philosopher.joe at gmail.com
Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 12:58:11 -0700
To: lfalen lfalen at turbonet.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Joe and Arrogance

> Did I say you were critical of Muslims and Mormons? No. What is true is that
> you supported a candidate who was openly critical of Mormons -- and then
> refused to talk about it! You are distorting my points and refusing to talk
> intelligently about the important issues underlying the post.

> You said- I did not mind muslims and Mormons being offended.  Me- I did not support a candidate who was  openly critical of Mormons.

> I don't care if other Mormons worked for Bouma. I'm sure there were Jews who
> worked for Hitler, too. What relevance is that? It's like telling me you
> have black friends, so you can't be a bigot.

> me- I won't argue with you here.

> Look, some of the comments were tongue in cheek; some were serious. It
> doesn't matter with you because you ignore serious questions anyway. I'm at
> a loss as to how to deal with you. You dismiss critical comments from anyone
> who disagrees with you.

 Me- this statement applies more to you than to me.
> 
> And you missed the substantive points noted below. Again, I'm sure you won't
> answer these questions but I'll ask AGAIN.
> 
> What would be wrong with me starting a church called Roger is an Idiot? If I
> did and said that you were an idiot was the central belief of that religion,
> would that make it right? If you say "Yes," then maybe I'll start the church
> and start spreading the word that you're an idiot. If you say "No," what on
> earth gives Bouma the right to regard Mormons as blasphemous; how is that
> attitude -- publicly and openly expressed by his pastor -- appropriate and
> not something that should be openly condemned? Maybe Bouma doesn't believe
> that. But then why didn't he answer questions from voters last election on
> this matter and make that clear? I'll tell you, if my pastor made such
> bigoted and idiotic comments, I'd leave in a heartbeat. Why didn't Bouma
> leave?

> Me- You can stare any church that you want.

> What gives Christ Church the right to be openly offensive and critical of
> gays, Muslims, secularists, etc.? Why do stand up and defend Bouma against
> my insults of him but not defend Mormons, gays, Muslims, secularists, etc.
> against insults from the local right wing pastors?
> 
> What is it about something being a religious conviction that makes
> offensive, bigoted behavior appropriate? Please explain that to me.

> Me-You can hold any belief that you want and have the freedom to preach it as long as you do not take overt action against anyone. You are also free to criticize any such beliefs. Bigoted is in the eye of the beholder.

> On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 11:58 AM, lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote:
> 
> > Almost everything you say here is off base. I do not recall ever being
> > critical of Muslims or Mormons. That is something that you assumed. You seem
> > to assume that everyone who is on the right economically is guilty of all
> > kinds of other sins. You should take each issue on its own merits.
> > I know a lot of Mormons who actively worked for Gresham.
> > If you do not want the term "idiot" applied to you, you should be more
> > careful in throwing out unsubstantiated comments.
> > You said that you use the term "idiot" to apply to those that say stupid
> > things. Almost everything that you said here applies
> > Roger
> > -----Original message-----
> > From: Joe Campbell philosopher.joe at gmail.com
> > Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2011 21:53:59 -0700
> > To: lfalen lfalen at turbonet.com
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Joe and Arrogance
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Looks like I really got under your skin.
> > >
> > > Nope!
> > >
> > > > The point is I think that you use the term "idiot" too liberally. I am
> > not a Gingrich fan, but I would wager that his IQ is higher than yours.
> > >
> > > You must be joking! "Idiot" is my affectionate term for people who say
> > stupid things. I use other terms when trying to insult people for real.
> > >
> > > > Who is the idiot? You do not know Gresham. He is not a bigot. He worked
> > closely with Ike Young, a mormon.
> > >
> > > Sorry. I guess Young is the real idiot.
> > >
> > > > His pastor, not him made the comments you dislike. When It comes to
> > religion, I do not criticize anyone's belief.
> > >
> > > You are an idiot. That is my religion, so stop criticizing me!
> > >
> > > > There are dogma in almost all religions  that I would disagree with and
> > some that I support. I look at the individual not their religion.
> > >
> > > Except Muslims and Mormons, who you don't seem to mind being offended.
> > >
> > > > Everyone is entitled to there religious beliefs as long as they do not
> > interfere with the rights of others. A lot of people think Mormons are
> > blasphemous and are not Christians because of there belief (as I understand
> > it) that anyone can become a god.
> > >
> > > But it's not offensive? It doesn't conflict with the right to free
> > EXERCISE of religion?
> > >
> > > Is the point that, if you say something that is a "religious" belief, you
> > can say whatever stupid thing you wish, offend as many other religions and
> > minorities you want?
> > >
> > > Do you think that religion is some kind of "get out of civil decency"
> > card?
> > >
> > > Well then I'm Pastor of the Church of Roger is an Idiot! How does that
> > work for you?
> > >
> > > I'm sorry but this is a bad view, Roger. Someone who believes this view
> > has no basis for criticizing anyone for saying anything.
> > >
> > > > I think that they are Christians because they believe in Jesus and
> > thier church is set up on the basis of Christ's 12 apostles. Most Mormons
> > that I know are great people and I admire their strong family
> > > > values.
> > >
> > > Ask your Mormon friends if they think Bouma is a bigot. Ask them if his
> > religious "freedom" extends to the limitation of their free exercise.
> > >
> > > > I did not call you a communist. You read that into my comments. As to
> > who resorts to name calling, look in the mirror.
> > >
> > > That's right. I think you used the term "socialist." Imagine my
> > embarrassment!
> > >
> > > > Roger
> > > > -----Original message-----
> > > > From: Joe Campbell philosopher.joe at gmail.com
> > > > Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 14:54:32 -0700
> > > > To: lfalen lfalen at turbonet.com
> > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Joe and Arrogance
> > > >
> > > >> Sorry -- last clarification.
> > > >>
> > > >> I didn't call ALL Republicans -- whom I disagree with -- "idiots." In
> > fact,
> > > >> I explicitly said that I don't think all Republicans are idiots and
> > > >> mentioned a few by name that I didn't think were idiots.
> > > >>
> > > >> I asked why Republicans VOTE for idiots. The idiots are folks like
> > Bush,
> > > >> Palin, and Gingrich. I called Gingrich an "idiot" because of his
> > bigoted
> > > >> comments -- comments which you conveniently didn't include in this
> > criticism
> > > >> -- not because he was a Republican. I asked a question: Why do so many
> > > >> Republicans vote for idiots -- folks who are either dumb as posts or
> > obvious
> > > >> and clear bigots?
> > > >>
> > > >> I'm asking you, too, Roger. Why did you openly support Gresham Bouma
> > in the
> > > >> last election, someone who is openly antagonistic toward Mormons? Why
> > > >> support Young, someone who was openly antagonistic toward folks on the
> > left?
> > > >> Do you think it is OK to call Mormons "blasphemous"? Do you think that
> > that
> > > >> kind of behavior is indicative of what our founding fathers meant by
> > the
> > > >> right to the free exercise of religion? Do you think leaders should
> > only
> > > >> cater to members of your own political party? That they can ignore the
> > folks
> > > >> that they don't vote for them?
> > > >>
> > > >> But the fact is that you won't answer these questions. What you'll do
> > is
> > > >> call me a "communist" and try to divert attention from the growing
> > racism of
> > > >> your political party. And what I'll continue to do is point out the
> > racism,
> > > >> even if it means putting up with your mean-spirited name calling.
> > > >>
> > > >> On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 11:52 AM, lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> It is amazing to me that some people on the left like joe, call
> > everyone
> > > >>> they disagree with idiots. I think it was Stalin that called the
> > American
> > > >>> left useful idiots. A friend of my aunt's on finding out I was a
> > friend of
> > > >>> Steve Symms said, "He can't be very bright can he". Some on the right
> > think
> > > >>> the same way. I do not know why people cannot disagree on the issues
> > with
> > > >>> out disparaging one another's intelligence.
> > > >>> Roger
> > > >>>
> > > >>> =======================================================
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> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > >
> >
> 
>