[Vision2020] HJR 4 and 5

[Joe Campbell]

This makes no sense. Is it better when 66.7% steal from the other 33.3%? How
are the 33.3% "protected" by this process?

On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 6:31 AM, Donovan Arnold <
donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> A super majority is the only thing that keeps 51% of the people from
> stealing from the other 49%. It is what protects individual rights of
> minorities in this country, and keeps Constitutions from changing back and
> forth every other year.
>
> Donovan J. Arnold
>
> --- On *Mon, 10/25/10, Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>
>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] HJR 4 and 5
> To: "Reggie Holmquist" <reggieholmquist at u.boisestate.edu>
> Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com, "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
> Date: Monday, October 25, 2010, 12:56 PM
>
>
> Exactly.
>
> Rule by majority is the basis for our representative republic.
>
> Do away with the super majority!
>
> The two-thirds vote is the primary reason why crucial issues are
> filibustered.
>
> Tom Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, October 25, 2010 12:46 pm, Reggie Holmquist wrote:
> > I, too, am having trouble seeing why a 2/3 vote is democracy, but a
> > majority
> > vote somehow isn't.  And since when is over 50% of the electorate a
> > "handful
> > of people?"
> >
> > -Reggie
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 12:14 PM, Darrell Keim <keim153 at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=keim153@gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> >
> >> That was one of my thoughts upon reading D's comments this morning.  My
> >> other thought was that D either doesn't like or doesn't understand that
> >> we
> >> live in a representative democracy.  We elect representatives to vote on
> >> things for us.  D seems to advocate either:
> >> 1.  A pure democracy.
> >> 2.  More use of ballot initiatives (ala Tim Eyman in WA, or California).
> >>
> >> I like our system of representative democracy, and prefer not to
> >> circumvent
> >> it with countless ballot initiatives.  California would seem to be a
> >> good
> >> warning as to the dangers of too many initiatives.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 12:08 PM, Sue Hovey <suehovey at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=suehovey@moscow.com>>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>>   And since when is a required 2/3 yes vote democratic?  Those of us
> >>> who
> >>> taught in antiquated school buildings for 30 plus years can certainly
> >>> speak
> >>> to that....as could you who went there.
> >>>
> >>> Sue
> >>>
> >>>  *From:* Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
> >
> >>> *Sent:* Monday, October 25, 2010 11:58 AM
> >>> *To:* vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>; ringoshirl <
> ringoshirl at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ringoshirl@moscow.com>
> >
> >>> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] HJR 4 and 5
> >>>
> >>>    "It's very limiting for these entities to need a 2/3 favorable vote
> >>> every time they need to make these purchases that they need for their
> >>> operations."-S. Ringo
> >>>
> >>> Democracy is so inconvenient isn't it?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I think it is good practice to have a 2/3 vote before incurring any
> >>> debt
> >>> and bad practice to let a handful of people rack up a debt for future
> >>> generations and others to absorb. I think if something truly is needed
> >>> and
> >>> debt needs to be incurred reasonable people will support it and it will
> >>> pass. We cannot just let hospitals go bankrupt and shut down let other
> >>> businesses, we need them.
> >>>
> >>> Again, people should not keep handing over their money and rights to an
> >>> increasingly smaller number of people that may have other interests
> >>> than
> >>> your own in mind.
> >>>
> >>> Donovan J Arnold
> >>>
> >>> --- On *Mon, 10/25/10, ringoshirl <ringoshirl at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ringoshirl@moscow.com>>*
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> From: ringoshirl <ringoshirl at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ringoshirl@moscow.com>
> >
> >>> Subject: [Vision2020] HJR 4 and 5
> >>> To: vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
> >>> Date: Monday, October 25, 2010, 5:32 AM
> >>>
> >>>  Visionaries:
> >>>
> >>> I support both of these.  It's very limiting for these entities to need
> >>> a
> >>> 2/3 favorable vote every time they need to make these purchases that
> >>> they
> >>> need for their operations. This does not affect Gritman.
> >>>
> >>> Shirley
> >>>
> >>> *
> >>>
> >>> H.J.R. 4
> >>> *
> >>>
> >>> “Shall Section 3C, Article VIII, of the Constitution of the State of
> >>> Idaho
> >>> be amended to authorize
> >>>
> >>> public hospitals, ancillary to their operations and in furtherance of
> >>> health care needs in their service
> >>>
> >>> areas, to incur indebtedness or liability to purchase, contract, lease
> >>> or
> >>> construct or otherwise acquire
> >>>
> >>> facilities, equipment, technology and real property for health care
> >>> operations, provided that no ad
> >>>
> >>> valorem tax revenues shall be used for such activities?”
> >>>
> >>> Proposed Amendment to the Constitution of the State of Idaho: Section
> >>> 3C,
> >>> Article VIII
> >>> *
> >>>
> >>> Legislative Council’s Statement of Meaning, Purpose and Result to be
> >>> Accomplished of Proposed
> >>>
> >>> Amendment:
> >>>
> >>> *
> >>>
> >>> This proposed amendment will allow public hospitals to acquire
> >>> facilities,
> >>> equipment, technology and
> >>>
> >>> real property through a variety of means that aid the public hospital
> >>> operations, as long as the acquisitions
> >>>
> >>> are paid for solely from charges, rents or payments derived from the
> >>> existing or financed facilities and
> >>>
> >>> are not funded by property taxes. Under current Idaho constitutional
> >>> provisions, public hospitals, as
> >>>
> >>> subdivisions of the state of Idaho, have limited ability to incur debt
> >>> without the approval of a two-thirds
> >>>
> >>> vote at an election held for that purpose. This proposed amendment will
> >>> provide a limited alternative
> >>>
> >>> to that two-thirds vote requirement. The use of tax dollars to finance
> >>> these kinds of investments is
> >>>
> >>> prohibited.
> >>>
> >>> *
> >>>
> >>> Statements FOR the Proposed Amendment
> >>>
> >>> *
> >>>
> >>> 1. The proposed amendment will allow Idaho’s public hospitals, which
> >>> are
> >>> primarily located in
> >>>
> >>> small towns and rural areas, to invest in new medical equipment,
> >>> facilities and technology to
> >>>
> >>> better meet the health care needs of patients in their communities,
> >>> strengthening Idaho’s entire
> >>>
> >>> health care system.
> >>>
> >>> 2. The proposed amendment will help give public hospitals the resources
> >>> they need to attract the
> >>>
> >>> best medical personnel, spur the economy by creating jobs, and increase
> >>> operational efficiency
> >>>
> >>> through long-term contracts.
> >>>
> >>> 3. The proposed amendment keeps in place the safeguards provided in the
> >>> Idaho Constitution in
> >>>
> >>> two ways. First, no tax dollars can be used to finance these
> >>> investments.
> >>> Second, the amendment
> >>>
> >>> strictly forbids obligating taxpayers or any state, county or other
> >>> governmental entity with these
> >>>
> >>> investments.
> >>>
> >>> *
> >>>
> >>> Statements AGAINST the Proposed Amendment
> >>>
> >>> *
> >>>
> >>> 1. The existing Idaho constitutional requirement mandating a two-thirds
> >>> assent of the voters before
> >>>
> >>> a public hospital can enter into long-term debt is an important
> >>> safeguard
> >>> for all Idaho citizens.
> >>>
> >>> 2. Adoption of the proposed amendment will limit the right of voters to
> >>> approve certain debt
> >>>
> >>> incurred by the public hospitals.
> >>>
> >>> 3. Changes to the Constitution should be made only for major issues of
> >>> interest to the state or in the
> >>>
> >>> event of a constitutional crisis.
> >>>
> >>> *
> >>>
> >>> H.J.R. 5
> >>>
> >>> *
> >>>
> >>> “Shall Article VIII, of the Constitution of the State of Idaho be
> >>> amended
> >>> by the addition of a new
> >>>
> >>> Section 3E, to provide for the issuance of revenue and special facility
> >>> bonds by political subdivisions
> >>>
> >>> of the state and regional airport authorities as defined by law, if
> >>> operating an airport to acquire,
> >>>
> >>> construct, install, and equip land, facilities, buildings, projects or
> >>> other property, which are hereby
> >>>
> >>> deemed to be for a public purpose, to be financed for, or to be leased,
> >>> sold or otherwise disposed of
> >>>
> >>> to persons, associations or corporations, or to be held by the
> >>> subdivision
> >>> or regional airport authority,
> >>>
> >>> and may in the manner prescribed by law issue revenue and special
> >>> facility
> >>> bonds to finance the costs
> >>>
> >>> thereof; provided that any such bonds shall be payable solely from
> >>> fees,
> >>> charges, rents, payments,
> >>>
> >>> grants, or any other revenues derived from the airport or any of its
> >>> facilities, structures, systems, or
> >>>
> >>> projects, or from any land, facilities, buildings, projects or other
> >>> property financed by such bonds,
> >>>
> >>> and shall not be secured by the full faith and credit or the taxing
> >>> power
> >>> of the subdivision or regional
> >>>
> >>> airport authority?”
> >>>
> >>> Proposed Amendment to the Constitution of the State of Idaho: New
> >>> Section
> >>> 3E, Article VIII
> >>>
> >>> *
> >>>
> >>> Legislative Council’s Statement of Meaning, Purpose and Result to be
> >>> Accomplished of Proposed
> >>>
> >>> Amendment:
> >>>
> >>> *
> >>>
> >>> Currently, local governmental entities that operate airports and
> >>> regional
> >>> airport authorities cannot
> >>>
> >>> incur indebtedness without the approval of a two-thirds vote at an
> >>> election held for that purpose. This
> >>>
> >>> proposed amendment will allow local governmental entities that operate
> >>> airports and regional airport
> >>>
> >>> authorities to issue revenue and special facility bonds to acquire,
> >>> construct, install and equip land,
> >>>
> >>> facilities, buildings, projects or other property. Voter approval will
> >>> not
> >>> be required to incur such
> >>>
> >>> indebtedness, as long as the bonds are paid for by fees, charges,
> >>> rents,
> >>> payments, grants or other
> >>>
> >>> revenues derived from the airport or its facilities. The use of tax
> >>> dollars to repay such bonds is
> >>>
> >>> prohibited.
> >>>
> >>> *
> >>>
> >>> Statements FOR the Proposed Amendment
> >>>
> >>> *
> >>>
> >>> 1. Public airports should have the ready ability to construct needed
> >>> facilities, such as terminals,
> >>>
> >>> runways, parking structures and hangars, which provide travelers with
> >>> better services and
> >>>
> >>> accommodations and attract industries to Idaho as long as the users pay
> >>> for these facilities.
> >>>
> >>> 2. Political subdivisions and regional airport authorities need the
> >>> ability to efficiently address
> >>>
> >>> operational needs as they arise. Adoption of this amendment will
> >>> provide
> >>> this ability without the
> >>>
> >>> use of tax dollars to repay any debt or liability incurred.
> >>>
> >>> 3. The inability of political subdivisions and regional airport
> >>> authorities to incur indebtedness and
> >>>
> >>> liability without voter approval has been a contributing factor in
> >>> driving
> >>> regional aviation-related
> >>>
> >>> industries to conduct business in neighboring states. If the proposed
> >>> amendment is not adopted,
> >>>
> >>> Idaho could continue to lose similar economic development
> >>> opportunities.
> >>>
> >>> 4. Public airports are a vital part of economic development and
> >>> commerce
> >>> in the state of Idaho. In
> >>>
> >>> 2009, aviation contributed an estimated $2.1 billion to Idaho’s
> >>> economy.
> >>> Properties and facilities
> >>>
> >>> funded by special facility bonds will attract and expand industries,
> >>> such
> >>> as maintenance, manu
> >>>
> >>> facturing
> >>>
> >>> and cargo operations, which will create new jobs and foster economic
> >>> development in
> >>>
> >>> Idaho. Modern and efficient airports are essential to Idaho’s
> >>> prosperity.
> >>>
> >>> *
> >>>
> >>> Statements AGAINST the Proposed Amendment (H.J.R. 5 Continued)
> >>>
> >>> *
> >>>
> >>> 1. The existing Idaho constitutional requirement mandating a two-thirds
> >>> assent of the voters before
> >>>
> >>> a political subdivision or regional airport authority can incur debt is
> >>> an
> >>> important safeguard for
> >>>
> >>> all Idaho citizens.
> >>>
> >>> 2. Adoption of the proposed amendment will allow political subdivisions
> >>> and regional airport
> >>>
> >>> authorities to acquire, construct, install and equip land, facilities,
> >>> buildings and projects that are
> >>>
> >>> not specifically limited to airport operations.
> >>>
> >>> 3. Buildings and land owned by the government are not taxed and
> >>> therefore
> >>> provide no revenues to
> >>>
> >>> schools, cities, counties or other levying authorities. Adoption of the
> >>> proposed amendment could
> >>>
> >>> result in an increase in property exempt from taxation.
> >>>
> >>> 4. Changes to the Constitution should be made only for major issues of
> >>> interest to the entire state
> >>>
> >>> or in the event of a constitutional crisis.
> >>>
> >>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
> >>>
> >>> =======================================================
> >>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >>>                http://www.fsr.net
> >>>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> >>> =======================================================
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>  ------------------------------
> >>> =======================================================
> >>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >>>                http://www.fsr.net
> >>>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> >>> =======================================================
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> =======================================================
> >>>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >>>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >>>               http://www.fsr.net
> >>>          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> >>> =======================================================
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> =======================================================
> >>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >>               http://www.fsr.net
> >>          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> >> =======================================================
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly
> what
> > the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and
> be
> > replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is
> another
> > theory which states that this has already happened.
> >
> > Douglas Adams
> > =======================================================
> >  List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >                http://www.fsr.net
> >           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> > =======================================================
>
>
> "The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to change
> and the Realist adjusts his sails."
>
> - Unknown
>
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>                http://www.fsr.net
>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> =======================================================
>
>
>
> =======================================================
>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>               http://www.fsr.net
>          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
>
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