[Vision2020] Religion & Political/Public Office

Tue Oct 19 22:45:40 PDT 2010

Excellent post, Debi (and Wayne, too), on a very serious topic.

To lighten the mood a little, I'm sure you'll be happy to know that
according to Bouma's delusional pastor -- the Fred Phelps of the Palouse -
doesn't consider Wicca to be a religion at all:

http://www.freezechurch.org/page44.html

"Then, in verse 5, Malachi gives us a list of some grievous sins that were
rampant in Israel then and will be rampant near the end of time also.

Number one is sorcery.

Sorcery is forbidden because it means trafficking with demons. 

The "satanic revival" that's going on today indicates that many people
aren't heeding God's warnings as they dabble in witchcraft and other demonic
practices. 

In fact, witch-craft is a legal religion in many places.

I'll guarantee you that Wicca has a firmer footing in our universities today
than does Christianity."

Saundra Lund

Moscow, ID

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
nothing.

~ Edmund Burke

***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2010 through life plus
70 years, Saundra Lund.  Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside
the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the
author.*****

From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
On Behalf Of deb
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 10:00 PM
To: Art Deco; Vision 2020
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Religion & Political/Public Office

Thank you, Wayne. You have presented a cogent, thoughtful, educated, and
realistic picture. I am 100% in agreement. This needs to be presented to all
political parties, all voters, and especially to candidates. 

As a confirmed Wiccan, my religion does not enter into how I vote, unless
and until the candidate espouses views that reject and/or affect any and all
religious values. I WILL NOT vote for anyone who puts religion into their
campaign. I fervently believe in the separation of church and state (as did
the Founding Fathers, benighted as they might have been given their time and
knowledge). "True Christian" has little meaning when one recognizes the
multiplicity of faiths which claim the name. I even know Wiccan Christians
who follow both the Christ and the Wiccan faith.

 (And I'm way tired of hearing the Church of Jesus  Christ of Latter Day
Saints (the Mormons) aren't Christians, or the whoever aren't "True
Christians". And I'm really tired of hearing that those who aren't
"Christian" are evil, bad, and crazy. Frankly, it would be refreshing if
That O'Donnel Woman really was a Witch!! And it would be fun to dis her,
too!)

"True Christian", in the US at this time, seems to denote a rabid bunch of
fanatical cults outside both the Teachings of Christ, the rule of Law, and
common decency. I find these people ridiculous, more than a little bit
scary, and totally suspect. They seem to draw in frightened (and
frightening) people who have no life, no self esteem, and little independent
thinking ability. What a great way to recruit fanatics---wind 'em up with
fear and loathing, find someone to blame, and send 'em out to do their
worst. Postcards, anyone? 

If they field a candidate, I am all for laughing that nut job out of the
race. And make no mistake, if they are elected we will all be extremely
sorry as they impose their own version of Biblical Law on the rest of us.

Debi R-S

 ----- Original Message ----- 

From: Art Deco <mailto:deco at moscow.com>  

To: Vision 2020 <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>  

Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 5:30 PM

Subject: [Vision2020] Religion & Political/Public Office

Roger Falen writes:

"I abhor religion being dragged into the political arena."

Roger's view reflects that of some other locals who have commented on
Postcardgate.

Are these people delusional, living on the far edges of reality?  I can only
most charitably assume that these unfortuantes somehow live lives totally
sheltered from all current media and who have never studied a whit of
history!

It doesn't take a rocket scientist or even a feeble-witted child of five to
see what happens when government becomes entangled with religious beliefs
and practices.  Even the slowest among us who read or see the news can see
what the effect of mixing religion and government in near and middle-eastern
countries leads to.  In addition to war, there is a great loss of individual
liberties and the punishment of people for doing the most ordinary things we
who live in a relatively secular society take for granted.

And such can't happen here?

See:

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/
2004/spring/taliban-on-the-palouse

And from Credenda/Agenda, part of Christ Church Cult plan for establishing a
theocracy:

http://information-receptical-f-001.googlegroups.com/web/No+Pity.pdf?gda=wwI
7jz0AAADfAMERIoT7virUdex72FZFZk8k9aCIPpL0tETFw78ewz1Kn5mchz5NeryAAGVuIfTlNv-
-OykrTYJH3lVGu2Z5
<http://information-receptical-f-001.googlegroups.com/web/No+Pity.pdf?gda=ww
I7jz0AAADfAMERIoT7virUdex72FZFZk8k9aCIPpL0tETFw78ewz1Kn5mchz5NeryAAGVuIfTlNv
--OykrTYJH3lVGu2Z5&gsc=X-dULwsAAAD-DGKXSQTnGiMJE7R5fCvi>
&gsc=X-dULwsAAAD-DGKXSQTnGiMJE7R5fCvi

Reality

In evaluating a person who proposes to become our elected representative or
other public functionary, we need to know what facts/probabilities/theories
they believe, the set of values they act upon, and the relative strength of
their belief in these values and how they will apply them to the duties of
their office.

And that's not enough.  We need to know how this candidates justify these
beliefs and values.

In the great early murder mystery, The Moonstone, by Wilkie Collins, Gabriel
Betteredge justifies his beliefs by looking things up in Robinson Crusoe.
Why is this relevant?

Think of the trillions of hours of careful work and verification that got us
to the point where we have enough knowledge to send persons to the moon and
watch it in real time.  This accomplishment was not the result of depending
on a work of fiction or a book of fairy tales.

It is the empirical method that made this knowledge possible, not wistful
thinking propounded by power motivated, bullheaded "my way or the highway"
thinking.

For the literate (those who can read at the high school level) who read this
post an essay by Charles Sanders Pierce called "The Fixation of Belief"
expresses this concept far better than I could possibly do.
http://www.peirce.org/writings/p107.html

There are thousands and thousands and variations of such of different
religions, all inconsistent with each other (and with logic and reality) and
there is no reliable, tested system to tell which of these religions, if any
is true.  And how horribly absurd to believe in an alleged omnipotent God
that can't even help us get this allegedly important belief straight.

And a candidate presenting oneself as a Christian is supposed to persuade us
to vote for them?

There is not one major ethical issue upon which Christians agree.  Whether
it be the death penalty, abortion, same gender marriage, if stealing or
lying is sometimes OK, and even surprisingly, whether to aid the poor and
unfortunate or not.

The word "Christian" is so vaguely and ambiguously used as an adjective that
it tells us nothing about how a person who uses the word to describe
themselves is likely to act.

The more fervently a person holds a belief, the more likely they are to
impose this belief on others, especially if they are running for political
office.  If they are fervent religious crackpots, they are very likely to
try to impose their beliefs derived from their crackpot religious beliefs
with very predictable and unpleasant outcomes, if history is any guide.

Knowledge is not perfect.  Some of what we now believe is most likely wrong.
Most everyday knowledge (and political, social, and economic knowledge) is
not nearly as probable as the knowledge carefully wrought by physics or
chemistry.  Most political, social, and economic theories are current
guesses, and there are major disagreements among the so-called authorities
on most of these theories.

None the less when I vote, I wish to vote for someone who bases their views
on beliefs and values derived by observation, beliefs whose approximate
probability can be judged based on our current state of knowledge, not by
relying upon a book of fairy tales.

I do not wish to have my life determined by someone relying on some
unverifiable, almost infinitely improbable set of religious or superstitious
fantasies.  I do not wish to have some religious crackpot tell people of the
same gender that they can't marry, for example, or that homosexuals ought be
executed or exiled, or that adulterers ought to be executed.

In the case of Gresham Bouma of the Freeze Church, which believes the Bible
is the allegedly inerrant word of some alleged god, I do not want Bouma or
any other religious crackpot to give acceptance, legal or not, to act as
proscribed in Numbers 5:11 et seq or to act in accordance with many of the
other ridiculous, cruel proscriptions found in the Bible.

Therefore, that's why I believe that any candidate's religious beliefs and
how these beliefs determine their thinking and actions are important.
Further, any candidate who is unwilling to discuss their religious beliefs
and how they determine their thinking and actions, and with how much weight
these beliefs determine their thinking and actions is not only being
dishonest, but is being a cowardly chickenshit and not deserving to hols
public office.

Wayne A. Fox
1009 Karen Lane
PO Box 9421
Moscow, ID  83843

waf at moscow.com
208 882-7975

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