[Vision2020] Religion & Political/Public Office

Tue Oct 19 22:00:00 PDT 2010

Thank you, Wayne. You have presented a cogent, thoughtful, educated, and realistic picture. I am 100% in agreement. This needs to be presented to all political parties, all voters, and especially to candidates. 

As a confirmed Wiccan, my religion does not enter into how I vote, unless and until the candidate espouses views that reject and/or affect any and all religious values. I WILL NOT vote for anyone who puts religion into their campaign. I fervently believe in the separation of church and state (as did the Founding Fathers, benighted as they might have been given their time and knowledge). "True Christian" has little meaning when one recognizes the multiplicity of faiths which claim the name. I even know Wiccan Christians who follow both the Christ and the Wiccan faith.

 (And I'm way tired of hearing the Church of Jesus  Christ of Latter Day Saints (the Mormons) aren't Christians, or the whoever aren't "True Christians". And I'm really tired of hearing that those who aren't "Christian" are evil, bad, and crazy. Frankly, it would be refreshing if That O'Donnel Woman really was a Witch!! And it would be fun to dis her, too!)

"True Christian", in the US at this time, seems to denote a rabid bunch of fanatical cults outside both the Teachings of Christ, the rule of Law, and common decency. I find these people ridiculous, more than a little bit scary, and totally suspect. They seem to draw in frightened (and frightening) people who have no life, no self esteem, and little independent thinking ability. What a great way to recruit fanatics---wind 'em up with fear and loathing, find someone to blame, and send 'em out to do their worst. Postcards, anyone? 

If they field a candidate, I am all for laughing that nut job out of the race. And make no mistake, if they are elected we will all be extremely sorry as they impose their own version of Biblical Law on the rest of us.

Debi R-S

 ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Art Deco 
  To: Vision 2020 
  Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 5:30 PM
  Subject: [Vision2020] Religion & Political/Public Office

  Roger Falen writes:

  "I abhor religion being dragged into the political arena."

  Roger's view reflects that of some other locals who have commented on Postcardgate.

  Are these people delusional, living on the far edges of reality?  I can only most charitably assume that these unfortuantes somehow live lives totally sheltered from all current media and who have never studied a whit of history!

  It doesn't take a rocket scientist or even a feeble-witted child of five to see what happens when government becomes entangled with religious beliefs and practices.  Even the slowest among us who read or see the news can see what the effect of mixing religion and government in near and middle-eastern countries leads to.  In addition to war, there is a great loss of individual liberties and the punishment of people for doing the most ordinary things we who live in a relatively secular society take for granted.

  And such can't happen here?

  See:

  http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2004/spring/taliban-on-the-palouse

  And from Credenda/Agenda, part of Christ Church Cult plan for establishing a theocracy:

  http://information-receptical-f-001.googlegroups.com/web/No+Pity.pdf?gda=wwI7jz0AAADfAMERIoT7virUdex72FZFZk8k9aCIPpL0tETFw78ewz1Kn5mchz5NeryAAGVuIfTlNv--OykrTYJH3lVGu2Z5&gsc=X-dULwsAAAD-DGKXSQTnGiMJE7R5fCvi

  Reality

  In evaluating a person who proposes to become our elected representative or other public functionary, we need to know what facts/probabilities/theories they believe, the set of values they act upon, and the relative strength of their belief in these values and how they will apply them to the duties of their office.

  And that's not enough.  We need to know how this candidates justify these beliefs and values.

  In the great early murder mystery, The Moonstone, by Wilkie Collins, Gabriel Betteredge justifies his beliefs by looking things up in Robinson Crusoe.  Why is this relevant?

  Think of the trillions of hours of careful work and verification that got us to the point where we have enough knowledge to send persons to the moon and watch it in real time.  This accomplishment was not the result of depending on a work of fiction or a book of fairy tales.

  It is the empirical method that made this knowledge possible, not wistful thinking propounded by power motivated, bullheaded "my way or the highway" thinking.

  For the literate (those who can read at the high school level) who read this post an essay by Charles Sanders Pierce called "The Fixation of Belief" expresses this concept far better than I could possibly do.  http://www.peirce.org/writings/p107.html

  There are thousands and thousands and variations of such of different religions, all inconsistent with each other (and with logic and reality) and there is no reliable, tested system to tell which of these religions, if any is true.  And how horribly absurd to believe in an alleged omnipotent God that can't even help us get this allegedly important belief straight.

  And a candidate presenting oneself as a Christian is supposed to persuade us to vote for them?

  There is not one major ethical issue upon which Christians agree.  Whether it be the death penalty, abortion, same gender marriage, if stealing or lying is sometimes OK, and even surprisingly, whether to aid the poor and unfortunate or not.

  The word "Christian" is so vaguely and ambiguously used as an adjective that it tells us nothing about how a person who uses the word to describe themselves is likely to act.

  The more fervently a person holds a belief, the more likely they are to impose this belief on others, especially if they are running for political office.  If they are fervent religious crackpots, they are very likely to try to impose their beliefs derived from their crackpot religious beliefs with very predictable and unpleasant outcomes, if history is any guide.

  Knowledge is not perfect.  Some of what we now believe is most likely wrong.  Most everyday knowledge (and political, social, and economic knowledge) is not nearly as probable as the knowledge carefully wrought by physics or chemistry.  Most political, social, and economic theories are current guesses, and there are major disagreements among the so-called authorities on most of these theories.

  None the less when I vote, I wish to vote for someone who bases their views on beliefs and values derived by observation, beliefs whose approximate probability can be judged based on our current state of knowledge, not by relying upon a book of fairy tales.

  I do not wish to have my life determined by someone relying on some unverifiable, almost infinitely improbable set of religious or superstitious fantasies.  I do not wish to have some religious crackpot tell people of the same gender that they can't marry, for example, or that homosexuals ought be executed or exiled, or that adulterers ought to be executed.

  In the case of Gresham Bouma of the Freeze Church, which believes the Bible is the allegedly inerrant word of some alleged god, I do not want Bouma or any other religious crackpot to give acceptance, legal or not, to act as proscribed in Numbers 5:11 et seq or to act in accordance with many of the other ridiculous, cruel proscriptions found in the Bible.

  Therefore, that's why I believe that any candidate's religious beliefs and how these beliefs determine their thinking and actions are important.  Further, any candidate who is unwilling to discuss their religious beliefs and how they determine their thinking and actions, and with how much weight these beliefs determine their thinking and actions is not only being dishonest, but is being a cowardly chickenshit and not deserving to hols public office.

  Wayne A. Fox
  1009 Karen Lane
  PO Box 9421
  Moscow, ID  83843

  waf at moscow.com
  208 882-7975

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