[Vision2020] Another good argument for the death penalty

[Andreas Schou]

Wayne --

The argument goes like this: there is no situation where the
judicially-sanctioned murder of an innocent person is justified;
regimes which allow the death penalty result in the execution of
innocent people; therefore, the death penalty is never justified. I
don't think either of the first two premises are arguable.
Consequently, why do you think the conclusion is insane?

-- ACS

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 7:22 PM, Art Deco <deco at moscow.com> wrote:
> Here's why arguments like we are engaged in cannot be resolved given our
> current state of knowledge:
>
> Ethical principles are not completely amenable to resolution by evidence or
> testing.  If they were, we wouldn't have such a wide diversity of opinion on
> ethical matters held by decent, reasonable people.  It's not like
> establishing Ohm's law or the Theory of Conditioned Reflexes.  Facts count,
> but even when people agree on the facts, they may not agree on an underlying
> ethical principle.
>
> It appears you are arguing for the principle that capital is never
> justified, or equivalently there is not a single case where capital
> punishment is justified.
>
> How would you empirically establish the truth of such a broad statement?
> What observations would render the probability of such a statement being
> 1.00?
>
> The best we can do in our current state of knowledge (the absence of an
> agreed method to establish ethical principles without doubt) is to attempt
> to persuade others by citing facts or other ethical principles which they
> may agree upon.
>
> In order to refute the statement "There is not a single case where capital
> punishment is justified." only a single case need be shown.
>
> I offered Joseph E. Duncan III as a counter-example
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_E._Duncan_III)
>
> "Joseph Edward Duncan (born February 25, 1963) is an American convicted
> serial killer and sex offender who received national attention after being
> arrested in connection with the kidnapping of Shasta Groene,[1] aged 8, and
> her brother Dylan,[2] 9, and being featured on America's Most Wanted.[3] He
> pled guilty in December 2007 to 10 federal counts involving the kidnapping
> and torture of the children and the murder of Dylan at a remote campsite
> west of the Rocky Mountain Front, and was sentenced to death under federal
> laws for kidnapping resulting in death (he had already pleaded guilty in
> state court) on August 27, 2008. As of October 27, 2009, Duncan was being
> tried in Riverside County, California for the 1997 murder of Anthony Michael
> Martinez."
>
> There is a lot more, a horrifyingly graphic, sickening more.
>
> I could have also cited a number of confessed serial murderers or used those
> old favorites Hitler and Saddam Hussein.
>
> Given your belief in the statement "There is not a single case where capital
> punishment is justified." such counterexamples would not be persuasive to
> you.  You would still hold the above ethical principle to be true despite
> the lack of a method to demonstrate it's truth.  However, some people might
> be persuaded that Duncan should be executed and make his case an exception
> to their general opposition to capital punishment.  In fact, I know of at
> least one such person.
>
> Until there is a method to establish the truth of general ethical principles
> differences of opinion like ours are not likely to be resolved.  We may
> persuade each other about certain cases or classes of cases (like those
> where guilt is questionable), but in general we have no way to come to
> agreement like we might if we were arguing about the cause of diabetes or
> whether syphilis is caused by urinating in the moonlight.
>
>
> W.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Sunil Ramalingam
> To: Art Deco ; Vision 2020
> Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 7:15 PM
> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Another good argument for the death penalty
> Not even him, and you want to kill for less than that.
>
> ________________________________
> From: deco at moscow.com
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 19:10:12 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Another good argument for the death penalty
>
> Joseph E. Duncan III
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Sunil Ramalingam
> To: Art Deco ; Vision 2020
> Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:41 PM
> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Another good argument for the death penalty
> I've never seen a good argument for the death penalty from you, Wayne.
>
> Sunil
>
> ________________________________
> From: deco at moscow.com
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 16:15:37 -0700
> Subject: [Vision2020] Another good argument for the death penalty
>
> Another good argument for the death penalty:
>
>
> Updated March 15, 2010
>
> Ex-Bank President Arrested for Allegedly Lying to Get TARP Money
>
> AP
>
> The former president of a small community bank was arrested on charges that
> he lied to the federal government to get a piece of the bailout program,
> authorities said Monday.
> NEW YORK -- The former president of a small community bank was arrested on
> charges that he lied to the federal government to get a piece of the bailout
> program, authorities said Monday.
> Charles Antonucci Sr. was charged in a criminal complaint filed in U.S.
> District Court in Manhattan with self-dealing, bank bribery, embezzlement
> and fraud.
> Authorities said the rip-off targeted the New York State Banking Department,
> the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. and the Troubled Asset Relief Program.
> Antonucci resigned last year as president of The Park Avenue Bank, which is
> headquartered in Manhattan with four retail branches in Manhattan and
> Brooklyn.
> Among other allegations, Antonucci was accused of using false information to
> request $11 million from the federal government's TARP bank bailout program.
> The complaint accused him of lying to banking authorities in late 2008 and
> early 2009 to make them believe he had invested $6.5 million of his own
> money in the bank when the money actually belonged to the bank.
> After the application for TARP money was rejected, Antonucci did a media
> interview in which he said the bank withdrew its application because of
> "issues" with the TARP program and a desire to avoid "market perception"
> that bad banks take TARP money, the complaint said.
> Federal authorities say Antonucci actually wanted to obtain millions of
> dollars for his own use, in part so he could obtain a controlling interest
> in the bank.
> They said he also permitted a former administrative assistant to obtain
> $400,000 of loans the assistant was not qualified for. The complaint said
> the former assistant is now cooperating.
> The complaint alleged that Antonucci later used the former bank employee's
> private plane on 10 or more occasions, including trips to Phoenix to attend
> the Super Bowl, to Augusta, Ga., to watch the Master's golf tournament, a
> flight to Florida to visit a relative and a flight to Panama.
> Antonucci's lawyer, Charles Stillman, said he had just gotten a copy of the
> charges. He declined immediate comment.
>
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