[Vision2020] Another good argument for the death penalty

[Art Deco]

Here's why arguments like we are engaged in cannot be resolved given our current state of knowledge:

Ethical principles are not completely amenable to resolution by evidence or testing.  If they were, we wouldn't have such a wide diversity of opinion on ethical matters held by decent, reasonable people.  It's not like establishing Ohm's law or the Theory of Conditioned Reflexes.  Facts count, but even when people agree on the facts, they may not agree on an underlying ethical principle.

It appears you are arguing for the principle that capital is never justified, or equivalently there is not a single case where capital punishment is justified.

How would you empirically establish the truth of such a broad statement?  What observations would render the probability of such a statement being 1.00?

The best we can do in our current state of knowledge (the absence of an agreed method to establish ethical principles without doubt) is to attempt to persuade others by citing facts or other ethical principles which they may agree upon.

In order to refute the statement "There is not a single case where capital punishment is justified." only a single case need be shown.

I offered Joseph E. Duncan III as a counter-example (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_E._Duncan_III)

"Joseph Edward Duncan (born February 25, 1963) is an American convicted serial killer and sex offender who received national attention after being arrested in connection with the kidnapping of Shasta Groene,[1] aged 8, and her brother Dylan,[2] 9, and being featured on America's Most Wanted.[3] He pled guilty in December 2007 to 10 federal counts involving the kidnapping and torture of the children and the murder of Dylan at a remote campsite west of the Rocky Mountain Front, and was sentenced to death under federal laws for kidnapping resulting in death (he had already pleaded guilty in state court) on August 27, 2008. As of October 27, 2009, Duncan was being tried in Riverside County, California for the 1997 murder of Anthony Michael Martinez."

There is a lot more, a horrifyingly graphic, sickening more.

I could have also cited a number of confessed serial murderers or used those old favorites Hitler and Saddam Hussein.

Given your belief in the statement "There is not a single case where capital punishment is justified." such counterexamples would not be persuasive to you.  You would still hold the above ethical principle to be true despite the lack of a method to demonstrate it's truth.  However, some people might be persuaded that Duncan should be executed and make his case an exception to their general opposition to capital punishment.  In fact, I know of at least one such person.

Until there is a method to establish the truth of general ethical principles differences of opinion like ours are not likely to be resolved.  We may persuade each other about certain cases or classes of cases (like those where guilt is questionable), but in general we have no way to come to agreement like we might if we were arguing about the cause of diabetes or whether syphilis is caused by urinating in the moonlight.


W.


----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Sunil Ramalingam 
  To: Art Deco ; Vision 2020 
  Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 7:15 PM
  Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Another good argument for the death penalty


  Not even him, and you want to kill for less than that.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  From: deco at moscow.com
  To: vision2020 at moscow.com
  Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 19:10:12 -0700
  Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Another good argument for the death penalty


  Joseph E. Duncan III
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Sunil Ramalingam 
    To: Art Deco ; Vision 2020 
    Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:41 PM
    Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Another good argument for the death penalty


    I've never seen a good argument for the death penalty from you, Wayne. 

    Sunil


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    From: deco at moscow.com
    To: vision2020 at moscow.com
    Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 16:15:37 -0700
    Subject: [Vision2020] Another good argument for the death penalty


    Another good argument for the death penalty:

    Updated March 15, 2010

    Ex-Bank President Arrested for Allegedly Lying to Get TARP Money

    AP 


    The former president of a small community bank was arrested on charges that he lied to the federal government to get a piece of the bailout program, authorities said Monday.

    NEW YORK -- The former president of a small community bank was arrested on charges that he lied to the federal government to get a piece of the bailout program, authorities said Monday.
    Charles Antonucci Sr. was charged in a criminal complaint filed in U.S. District Court in Manhattan with self-dealing, bank bribery, embezzlement and fraud.
    Authorities said the rip-off targeted the New York State Banking Department, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. and the Troubled Asset Relief Program.
    Antonucci resigned last year as president of The Park Avenue Bank, which is headquartered in Manhattan with four retail branches in Manhattan and Brooklyn.
    Among other allegations, Antonucci was accused of using false information to request $11 million from the federal government's TARP bank bailout program.
    The complaint accused him of lying to banking authorities in late 2008 and early 2009 to make them believe he had invested $6.5 million of his own money in the bank when the money actually belonged to the bank.
    After the application for TARP money was rejected, Antonucci did a media interview in which he said the bank withdrew its application because of "issues" with the TARP program and a desire to avoid "market perception" that bad banks take TARP money, the complaint said.
    Federal authorities say Antonucci actually wanted to obtain millions of dollars for his own use, in part so he could obtain a controlling interest in the bank.
    They said he also permitted a former administrative assistant to obtain $400,000 of loans the assistant was not qualified for. The complaint said the former assistant is now cooperating.
    The complaint alleged that Antonucci later used the former bank employee's private plane on 10 or more occasions, including trips to Phoenix to attend the Super Bowl, to Augusta, Ga., to watch the Master's golf tournament, a flight to Florida to visit a relative and a flight to Panama.
    Antonucci's lawyer, Charles Stillman, said he had just gotten a copy of the charges. He declined immediate comment.
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