[Vision2020] Say Whut?

Sun Jan 24 08:42:13 PST 2010

Paul, Keely, Glenn, ect.,

I call people that come into this country illegally "lawbreakers" because that is exactly what they do. That crime is a very serious crime for many reasons including taking jobs away from US citizens, exhausting health care resources, overcrowding of public schools, creating unsafe roadways, overpopulating an area, reducing property values, introducing health problems, exhaustion of food stamps, overtaxing of police, fire, and other public services. They also bring an increase in crime, gangs, violence, and drugs. 

They also lower wages and benefits for the lower and middle classes that live in the United States year round. They lower the per capital income. There is also a long list of human rights abuses that are associated with the human smuggling trade, including the death, slavery and sexual exploitation of woman and children; elements of organized crime in which, as a civilized wealthy nation, should have zero tolerance. 

Allowing people to take jobs and send their salaries outside the country instead of spending and investing it on local businesses (as you seem to suggest) in this country which are taxed here is economic suicide. The taxes collected on the $7.25/hr wage earners are actually negative, they would receive tax refunds, we would be paying them even more money. Not to mention all the other benefits they would become entitled to get, like scholarships, home loans, medicare and medicaid, subsidized housing, etc. 

I agree that many if not most illegal immigrants are hard working people and deserve much more than they are getting in return for their work. They deserve better human rights than they are certainly receiving here. However, where we seem to disagree is that I don't think the solution to that is make the lower and middle classes of American pay for it or future generations of Americans whose lifestyle will already be lower than our own. I think the solution rests in people returning to their own countries, building them up, establishing their own businesses and industries, creating their own laws, rights, and public services. 

Your Friend,

Donovan Arnold

--- On Sun, 1/24/10, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Say Whut?
To: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2008 at yahoo.com>
Cc: "Glenn Schwaller" <vpschwaller at gmail.com>, "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Date: Sunday, January 24, 2010, 3:32 PM

Characterizing them as "lawbreakers" is disingenuous.  They are breaking the immigration laws, yes, but calling them "lawbreakers" makes it sound like they are murderers and rapists.  However, for the most part, they are hard-working people that blow the average American's work ethic away.  They work hard, make what is for them a large amount of cash, and then go back home and spend it.  Why not leverage that work ethic for our country?  Why not make it possible for them to make the money legally here, tax it, and encourage them to spend it in this country?

I agree with your point about those that can work and do not work yet take advantage of the various programs out there.  The hard part is always filtering them out.

Paul

Donovan Arnold wrote:
> Paul, Glen, Keely, etc.,
>  Why don't we first give the opportunities to law abiding citizens that have been working and paying taxes for decades in this country, then work on the opportunities for lawbreakers and those that don't pay taxes?
>  It seems to me that all the people that don't work, or don't want to work, or don't get an education to support all the dependents they create. or break the law,  get all the freebies on the backs of those that do work and do what they are suppose to do.
>  The government should NOT be giving away free goods to people that can and do not work. They should only be giving tax credits and incentives to businesses to create jobs or the government should create jobs and pay people to work. They should not be giving things away at the expense of people that work, or working people of future generations.
>  How about more incentives to find a job, any job, save, be healthy, and be a law abiding citizen. How about free health for those that keep healthy and don't commit a felony. How about free education to anyone paying taxes for 25 years? How about free food stamps to those that keep a job? How about an income tax free life about 40 years of paying taxes?
>  Nope, all the free crap has to go to those that commit crimes, don't want to work, or can work the system.
>  Native peoples of the Americas believed that it is responsibility of each generation to ensure the future of the next seven generations.. Our philosophy has been to ensure the demise and failure of the next seven generations by burying them in massive debt.   Your Friend,
>  Donovan Arnold  
> 
> --- On *Sun, 1/24/10, Paul Rumelhart /<godshatter at yahoo..com>/* wrote:
> 
> 
>     From: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
>     Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Say Whut?
>     To: "Glenn Schwaller" <vpschwaller at gmail.com>
>     Cc: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>     Date: Sunday, January 24, 2010, 1:28 AM
> 
> 
>     Sounds like we're in agreement, then.  Let's grant the kids of
>     illegal
>     aliens legal status so they can then improve the brain trust and help
>     out our tax base.
> 
>     Paul
> 
>     Glenn Schwaller wrote:
>     > The UW president's approach is backwards - obtain legal status
>     in the
>     > country THEN you may pursue the rights, privileges and opportunities
>     > of all citizens and those with legal status.  Doesn't matter if it's
>     > education, jobs, health care, bank loans, housing, day care, food
>     > stamps, whatever.  Legal first - "stuff" second.
>     >
>     > Quite simple really.  I'm surprised it had to be spelled out for
>     you.
>     >
>     > GS
>     >
>     > On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 12:41 PM, keely emerinemix
>     <kjajmix1 at msn.com
>     <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kjajmix1@msn.com>>
>     wrote:
>     >       >> Gee, I'm guessing that Glenn and I both reacted strongly to
>     this.  My
>     >> reaction was favorable, though, given that virtually all of
>     these kids came
>     >> here as children with their parents, and given that the US
>     needs an increase
>     >> in both its brain trust and its tax base.  This would provide both.
>     >>
>     >> So why is it that I'm not expecting Glenn to celebrate with
>     me?  I'd
>     >> appreciate his comments.
>     >>
>     >> Keely
>     >> www.keely-prevailingwinds.com
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>         >>> Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:07:28 -0800
>     >>> From: vpschwaller at gmail.com
>     <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vpschwaller@gmail.com>
>     >>> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>     <http://us.mc447..mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
>     >>> Subject: [Vision2020] Say Whut?
>     >>>
>     >>> "University of Washington president Mark Emmert said he supports
>     >>> allowing illegal immigrant students to attend college as a
>     pathway to
>     >>> permanent residency and US citizenship. Those students . .. . could
>     >>> take out student loans."
>     >>>
>     >>> GS
>     >>>
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