[Vision2020] Like a Twinkie (Was "Freedom of Expression")

[Paul Rumelhart]

I guess the mere existence of a book that defends slavery, if that's what it's 
doing, doesn't shock me as much as the rest of you.  If you really want to be 
shocked, I can send you to a couple of websites I know of, or point you to a 
couple of movies I've watched recently.

My only point was that I don't think it should be classified as hate speech, 
based on what I have heard about it.  I still don't understand why that throws 
you all into a tizzy.

I don't know what to do about this, so I guess I *am* doomed to go through life 
ignorant and opinionated.

Oh well.  Have a nice holiday.

Paul




----- Original Message ----
From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
To: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
Cc: keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com>; Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>; Moscow 
Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Fri, December 17, 2010 6:40:10 AM
Subject: Re: Like a Twinkie (Was "Freedom of Expression")

Again, I'm off the V for awhile but since you asked the answer is that
Wison's book is a defense of SLAVERY. That and he's had a lot of
political influence in town for a pastor. And then there is the fact
that he gets to say whatever offensive thing he wants and anytime time
someone speaks out against him he tries to get them fired (see some of
the letters written to the governor trying to get two UI profs fired
for writing the critical pamphlet of his book), or kicks them out of
his church (Michael Metzler), or floods the V with posts from his
friends (Crabtree, Harkins, etc.).

Just read the introduction to his book that Tom posted or any of a
number of things on Tom's website. Won't take long. In other words, DO
SOME RESEARCH ABOUT THE STUFF YOU KEEP TALKING ABOUT IN PUBLIC BUT
ADMIT TO KNOWING NOTHING ABOUT. Or just stay out of it you'd rather go
through life ignorant but opinionated.

Best, Joe

On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 7:07 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> You know, I find it amazing how many people want to make sure that I know
> that Doug Wilson's book is crap, when I've never even read it, I'm not
> advocating for any positions he takes, and the only thing I've said about it
> is that I wouldn't classify it as hate speech based on my admittedly limited
> knowledge of it's contents.
>
> Why does he have such a profound effect on so many people here?  Usually
> when I'm discussing my views on freedom of expression, it's in the context
> of supporting someone who has made a statue of Jesus on the cross and put it
> on display in a jar of urine or denouncing something like Amazon's recent
> move to delete Kindle books people paid for from their Kindle archives
> because they contain descriptions of incestuous relationships.  Those
> usually lead to lively discussions about how much is too much and whether it
> makes sense to limit freedom of expression in certain defined areas.  Yet
> the only discussion this topic engenders here is a unanimous agreement that
> Doug Wilson's book is crap.
>
> I guess I'll just have to go through life not understanding this.
>
> Paul
>
> keely emerinemix wrote:
>>
>> I will wade in once more, just long enough to remark that if Paul's
>> arguments are based on the premise that Wilson's slavery booklet is "a valid
>> work of historical research," he is making his freedom of speech argument on
>> the flimsiest possible grounds.
>> I would hope that Paul would stake his claim on the presumption that the
>> First Amendment means that Wilson can say idiotic, insipid things -- a point
>> on which we all agree.  But to augment his point with the offhanded
>> assumption that Wilson's take on Southern Slavery is a valid contribution to
>> the annals of American history reveals Paul's argument to be based not on
>> the rightness of free speech, however stupid its content, but on the
>> possibility that this example of protected blather makes that freedom more
>> valuable.
>>
>> "Southern Slavery As It Was" is to valid historical research as a Hostess
>> Twinkie laced with rat poison is to classic French cuisine.  Like a toxic
>> Twinkie, it's a dense brick of artificial content, sugar-coated to appeal to
>> the basest of audiences and full of preservatives -- appeals to "Southern
>> culture," Christian patriarchy, and wooden Biblical literalism -- that
>> guarantee a long shelf life.  Like a Twinkie, "Southern Slavery As It Was"
>> is offered as a valid, important contribution to the field it purports to be
>> an example of -- cuisine, American history -- and it deserves nothing but
>> contempt from any literate reader, much less established, trained
>> historians.   Wilson's "research" and conclusions are as embarrassingly
>> idiotic as West of Paris' chef Francis Foucachon's offering a Twinkie during
>> his dessert course would be.  Unfortunately, the chef would have to add
>> poison to the plastic-wrapped Twinkie to complete the analogy, because the
>> conclusions of Wilson's booklet are utterly toxic in their effect on race
>> relations, historical understanding, Biblical hermeneutics, and Christian
>> social and cultural engagement.
>> A diet of nutritionally empty starch, sugar, and artificial fluff
>> guarantees poor physical health -- but its effect, at least, is contained
>> within the junk food junkie.  Unfortunately, followers of Wilson's theology,
>> history, and manner of cultural engagement willingly gorge themselves on the
>> fluff and filth he offers and then begin other churches and other
>> "ministries" devoted to Wilsonian ideas and ideals.   That's bad for those
>> followers, a disgrace for the Church and its witness in the world, a
>> horrific way of living in the culture around us, and a toxic blow to the
>> "truth, goodness, and beauty" Wilson insists is the fruit of the Gospel.
>>
>> He has every right to say what he says; I have every right to judge what
>> he says to be insipid and vile.  And if there's a Truth who is our ultimate
>> judge, as both Wilson and I believe, I would quake before Him if I persisted
>> in using His Word to defend the utterly, despicably indefensible.
>> And now I really do intend to take a Vision break . . . Happy Holidays to
>> all of you!
>>
>> Keely
>> www.keely-prevailingwinds.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 05:30:38 -0800
>> > From: thansen at moscow.com
>> > To: godshatter at yahoo.com; philosopher.joe at gmail.com;
>> > vision2020 at moscow.com
>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Freedom of expression
>> >
>> > Paul Rumelhart blindly hypothesizes:
>> >
>> > "I'd also like to point out that I haven't read Doug Wilson's book, and
>> > have no idea exactly what his claims in it are. . . . If Doug's book is
>> > a
>> > valid work of historical research, . . . "
>> >
>> > Here you go, Mr. R.
>> >
>> > Read "Southern Slavery As It Was" and judge for yourself. It's a fair
>> > attempt at third grade fiction.
>> >
>> >
>> > 
>>http://reformed-theology.org/html/books/slavery/southern_slavery_as_it_was.htm
>> >
>> > Seeya round the plantation, Moscow.
>> >
>> > Tom Hansen
>> > Moscow, Idaho
>> >
>> > On Wed, December 15, 2010 10:23 pm, Paul Rumelhart wrote:
>> > >
>> > > I don't think your "city test" is measuring what you think it is.
>> > > Instead of being a valid measure of the amount of hate in a particular
>> > > idea, it's measuring how emotionally invested people are in the topic.
>> > > As I've said before, in some places in this country you would find
>> > > certain basic ideas that I find completely reasonable to elicit a
>> > > strong
>> > > negative reaction. This reaction says more about the person reacting
>> > > to
>> > > the statements than it does about anything else.
>> > >
>> > > I'd also like to point out that I haven't read Doug Wilson's book, and
>> > > have no idea exactly what his claims in it are. It wasn't pertinent to
>> > > my original point, which was that no matter what it says Doug has the
>> > > right to express his opinions. I'm just trying to say that a stance
>> > > that some people vehemently disagree with and that some people would
>> > > find offensive does not necessarily equate to being hate speech. A
>> > > study, for example, that showed that members of ethnicity A have a
>> > > much
>> > > lower IQ on average that that of ethnicity B may be seen as completely
>> > > incorrect and grossly offensive to members of ethnicity A, but should
>> > > it
>> > > be classified as "hate speech"? I would say no, not if it's a valid
>> > > scientific study. If Doug's book is a valid work of historical
>> > > research, then I wouldn't classify it as "hate speech" even if it's
>> > > conclusions would get you beat up on the street in Spokane. Your
>> > > opinion may be different, so we might just have to agree to disagree
>> > > on
>> > > this one.
>> > >
>> > > If we try to use the test that if someone finds something offensive
>> > > then
>> > > it must be hate speech, then you get strange situations where people
>> > > with no ill will towards members of a particular group might
>> > > inadvertently offend someone and thus have their speech classified as
>> > > "hate speech". All I'm saying is that the common sense definition of
>> > > "hate speech" would be speech showing hatred towards something. How
>> > > this definition changed into some sort of marker that a particular
>> > > speech offended someone is beyond me.
>> > >
>> > > Paul
>> > >
>> > > Joe Campbell wrote:
>> > >> Well there ARE a lot of reasons one could get their butt kicked in a
>> > >> city. But none have the level of predictability of the city test. You
>> > >> would not have any reason, in general, to think "Were I to go to
>> > >> Spokane today, I'm likely to get my butt kicked." But you would have
>> > >> plenty of reason to think that were you to go to Spokane today and,
>> > >> say, hand out fliers that claim slavery in the US was a "paradise in
>> > >> which slaves were treated well and had a harmonious relationship with
>> > >> their masters" that you'd get your butt kicked. That is why you won't
>> > >> do it, right? You know and I know what will happen. You'll go to
>> > >> Spokane one day because, though it could happen, it's unlikely you'll
>> > >> get your butt kicked but you won't try the city test because you know
>> > >> you'll at least have a bad day, an unpleasant experience in Spokane.
>> > >> Maybe you should just trust me on this one. I keep saying "try it"
>> > >> but
>> > >> you shouldn't try it because I KNOW what will happen.
>> > >>
>> > >> You seem to think that Wilson is more naive than I do. I tend to give
>> > >> him more credit and think he is more clever than you do. But even if
>> > >> Wilson is ignorant, I'm not sure that it is relevant to whether or
>> > >> not
>> > >> the slavery book is hate speech. Think of your example of hate speech
>> > >> below. It wouldn't matter if someone actually believed that a
>> > >> particular race was "sub-human" would it? Likely someone who said
>> > >> such
>> > >> a thing in public WOULD believe it but that fact wouldn't mean that
>> > >> it
>> > >> wasn't hate speech.
>> > >>
>> > >> And how on earth COULD someone think that slavery was a "paradise,"
>> > >> as
>> > >> you say? And how isn't that claim offensive, no matter how ignorant
>> > >> the person was who said it? Again, consider the Elizabeth Smart case.
>> > >> It would be offensive to suggest, in public, that she enjoyed being
>> > >> kidnapped, held against her will, raped and abused. If you said that
>> > >> in public it would be offensive. If you tried to justify saying it by
>> > >> saying you actually believed it that would not justify the offense. I
>> > >> would think that you were SO ignorant that you MUST be culpable. It
>> > >> isn't as if ignorance always mitigates. If you tell me you failed an
>> > >> exam because you failed to study that is no excuse. There are some
>> > >> things that people should know better and that kidnapping is wrong,
>> > >> that holding someone who committed no crime against her will is wrong
>> > >> are among them.
>> > >>
>> > >> I don't see how moving from the single case of Elizabeth Smart to the
>> > >> general case of slavery makes your story any more plausible. For
>> > >> crying out loud, Americans went to Africa and kidnapped other human
>> > >> beings, held them against their will, sold them for profit, abused
>> > >> them, and forced them to work without pay. What about this story
>> > >> sounds like "paradise"? How would it matter how they were treated
>> > >> while they were held against their will? How twisted of a world view
>> > >> would one have to have in order to come away with the idea that this
>> > >> was a kind of "paradise" and that saying so in public was anything
>> > >> less than offensive? Common sense and empathy should be enough to
>> > >> tell
>> > >> you that slavery is wrong. The only way that you could possibly
>> > >> justify it is if you were to think that the people held as slaves
>> > >> were, as you said, "sub-human." I see no other possibility. Now we've
>> > >> moved from Wilson's book to the kind of stuff you do consider to be
>> > >> hate speech and it was not a long trip.
>> > >>
>> > >> And that is exactly why the claims of Wilson's book are wrong. The US
>> > >> practice of slavery was justifiable ONLY on the assumption that
>> > >> blacks
>> > >> are sub-human. That, at any rate, is what anyone who gave the issue a
>> > >> moment's thought would conclude. That is why the claim that slavery
>> > >> was really a "paradise" is offensive. That is why saying it in public
>> > >> would incite violence and that is why it is hate speech. It is a very
>> > >> natural progression from Wilson's claims to claims that even you
>> > >> admit
>> > >> are hate speech.
>> > >>
>> > >> And don't try to justify it all by appealing to Wilson's religious
>> > >> beliefs. It isn't as if religion is some kind of "get out of civility
>> > >> free" card. I'm certain that the folks who crushed the twin towers
>> > >> actually believed that they were doing the right thing because of
>> > >> their own warped religious views. In reflective moments I might think
>> > >> that this mitigates their actions, makes them less blameworthy but
>> > >> most of the time I think their beliefs were so warped that they
>> > >> should
>> > >> have known better. Regardless, at no time do I think it isn't worth
>> > >> noting that they had warped beliefs and noting that religion is no
>> > >> excuse for wrong action. At the very least, even if Wilson is as
>> > >> naive
>> > >> as you think he is, I would still say the same things I've been
>> > >> saying: that his ignorance has gone too far and much of what he says
>> > >> is offensive and should not be said in a civil society. If he is
>> > >> ignorant certainly he needs folks to shake some sense into him. And
>> > >> that's giving him the "benefit" of the doubt, as you do. Again, I'm
>> > >> pretty sure he is not that ignorant but I may be wrong. Wouldn't
>> > >> change what I say either way.
>> > >>
>> > >> On Dec 14, 2010, at 11:11 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
>> > >> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>> Can't you get your ass kicked in a city for any of a number of
>> > >>> reasons?
>> > >>> Such as wearing the wrong color coat or walking down the wrong alley
>> > >>> or having the wrong skin color or looking the wrong person in the
>> > >>> eye?
>> > >>>
>> > >>> I don't think that Doug Wilson's book on slavery is hate speech,
>> > >>> because I believe that he truly believes what he's written and that
>> > >>> he's not intending to insult anyone. He may be seriously wrong, but
>> > >>> I
>> > >>> would expect that something should be called "hate speech" only when
>> > >>> it
>> > >>> involves speaking in such a way as to show hatred for a group based
>> > >>> solely on a person's membership in that group. For example, if he
>> > >>> had
>> > >>> said "blacks are a sub-human race and won't amount to anything if
>> > >>> someone doesn't take a strong hand with them", then I would classify
>> > >>> that as hate speech with respect to the non-law definition. In fact,
>> > >>> that's a common theme I heard from more than one person growing up
>> > >>> in
>> > >>> idyllic Idaho when I was a kid. It's not something I ever agreed
>> > >>> with,
>> > >>> but it was common to hear it in conversations on the subject of race
>> > >>> relations. In fact, back then, there were places where you could get
>> > >>> your ass kicked if you walked in off the street and tried to
>> > >>> describe
>> > >>> how black peopl!
>> > > e are as good as white people and deserve to be treated equally,
>> > > making
>> > > such statements into "hate speech" by your definition. Intent should
>> > > matter.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Anyway, I also appreciate the civil conversation. Especially knowing
>> > >>> that this is an emotionally charged topic for a lot of people.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Paul
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Joe Campbell wrote:
>> > >>>
>> > >>>> Paul,
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> There are a lot of issues here. No one is helped if we jumble them
>> > >>>> up
>> > >>>> and forget which one we're talking about.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> We're not talking about freedom of expression. I believe it, you
>> > >>>> believe it, it's the law. I keep saying I'm not for legal
>> > >>>> restrictions
>> > >>>> of speech (other than the ones we already have, like yelling fire
>> > >>>> in a
>> > >>>> crowd etc.), Nick has said the same. So please stop bringing it up.
>> > >>>> We
>> > >>>> agree.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> In your previous post to me you mocked my clam that Wilson's
>> > >>>> pro-slavery book was hate speech. I gave this definition: speech
>> > >>>> that
>> > >>>> "may incite violence or prejudicial action against or by a
>> > >>>> protected
>> > >>>> individual or group, or because it disparages or intimidates a
>> > >>>> protected individual or group." The "city test" (as I'll call it)
>> > >>>> is a
>> > >>>> test to see if something is hate speech. If you can say it on a
>> > >>>> city
>> > >>>> street and LIKELY get beat up, it is hate speech. If you went to a
>> > >>>> city, stood on a street corner, and tried to sell folks the idea
>> > >>>> that
>> > >>>> slavery in the US was a "paradise in which slaves were treated well
>> > >>>> and had a harmonious relationship with their masters" you would get
>> > >>>> beat up. It WOULD incite violence, violence to YOU. In order to get
>> > >>>> slaves they had to be KIDNAPPED and held AGAINST their WILL. Does
>> > >>>> that
>> > >>>> sound like paradise to you? Would anyone in their right mind think
>> > >>>> that being kidnapped, held against ones will, and forced into labor
>> > >>>> with no pay is PARADISE? It is an OFFENSIVE idea with NO merit
>> > >>>> whatsoever. It would be offensive to suggest the idea in a single
>> > >>>> case
>> > >>>> -- like the Elizabeth Smart case: it is offensive to suggest that
>> > >>>> she
>> > >>>> enjoyed being kidnapped, held against her will, raped and abused.
>> > >>>> To
>> > >>>> suggest it about the US institution of slavery is even more
>> > >>>> offensive,
>> > >>>> offense to blacks and to almost anyone else. There is no purpose
>> > >>>> for
>> > >>>> such an absurd suggestion. The only reason that someone would make
>> > >>>> such a suggestion would be to incite rage in other people, people
>> > >>>> one
>> > >>>> hates. There is NO reasonable purpose other than this to make such
>> > >>>> an
>> > >>>> absurd claim. None. That is why the book needed to be published on
>> > >>>> Wilson's own vanity press. No legitimate publisher would touch it.
>> > >>>> That is why it took merely a pamphlet by a pair of UI historians to
>> > >>>> refute it. It is without academic and social merit. Its only
>> > >>>> purpose
>> > >>>> is to make people angry. That is hate speech.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Again, if you think I'm wrong just try the city test. Just find one
>> > >>>> black man NOT a member of Christ Church and run the idea by him.
>> > >>>> Then
>> > >>>> try to convince him that it isn't offensive. See where you get. You
>> > >>>> cannot take this crap to anywhere other than an on-line blog in
>> > >>>> Idaho
>> > >>>> and get away with saying it without getting punched in the nose or
>> > >>>> having your house burned to the ground. It is hate speech. If you
>> > >>>> want
>> > >>>> to try to prove me wrong, I'll be happy to drive you to Spokane and
>> > >>>> we'll put it to the test. Although I'll remain in the car while you
>> > >>>> conduct the test because someone will need to take you to the
>> > >>>> hospital
>> > >>>> afterward and it won't be the guy who beat you up.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> And the definition of "hate speech" is not watered down at all. You
>> > >>>> could try the city test with a variety of other statements and
>> > >>>> LIKELY
>> > >>>> you won't get punched. There is something special about the
>> > >>>> suggestion
>> > >>>> that slavery was paradise, something that you still don't seem to
>> > >>>> get.
>> > >>>> If you tried the city test, you'd get it rather quickly. I'm just
>> > >>>> asking you to put your nose where your theory is and see what
>> > >>>> happens.
>> > >>>> You won't do it, so you loose this particular debate. Wilson's book
>> > >>>> is
>> > >>>> hate speech.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> I just wanted to point out that this is the first time I've ever
>> > >>>> had
>> > >>>> an extended discussion on Vision 2020 about Wilson, NSA, etc. and
>> > >>>> no
>> > >>>> one mentioned my job, offended me with insults, or told me to take
>> > >>>> it
>> > >>>> off-line. So I thank you for that! Though I'm a bit worried that it
>> > >>>> is
>> > >>>> merely the calm before the storm.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Best, Joe
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> On Dec 13, 2010, at 9:19 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
>> > >>>> wrote:
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>> Joe Campbell wrote:
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>> Thoughtful discussion like this about the slavery book could only
>> > >>>>>> happen here and practically nowhere else in the country. You take
>> > >>>>>> that
>> > >>>>>> book to a street corner in almost any city and try to give the
>> > >>>>>> explanation you are giving below. Do it. I am serious. You won't
>> > >>>>>> but
>> > >>>>>> if you did, someone would literally beat the crap out of you. It
>> > >>>>>> would
>> > >>>>>> quite literally incite violence. Go to any city with a diverse
>> > >>>>>> population and try this experiment and see what happens. You
>> > >>>>>> won't
>> > >>>>>> do
>> > >>>>>> it and you know it. That should tell you something about your own
>> > >>>>>> attitude toward your own argument. You can only give it in the
>> > >>>>>> sheltered confines of V2020 in Moscow, Idaho. Bad argument!
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>> I'm advocating for freedom of expression, not Doug Wilson's views
>> > >>>>> on
>> > >>>>> slavery. That means that I'm often in the position of trying to
>> > >>>>> protect someone's right with whom I disagree, since they are often
>> > >>>>> the ones that people are trying to censor.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> This idea that people should not express their opinions because
>> > >>>>> other
>> > >>>>> people might get upset is basically what I'm fighting against. No,
>> > >>>>> I
>> > >>>>> wouldn't want to go there and preach from the gospel of Doug. I
>> > >>>>> don't really want to go to a right-wing bar and start discussing
>> > >>>>> the
>> > >>>>> benefits of gay marriage either. That doesn't mean that I
>> > >>>>> shouldn't
>> > >>>>> talk about it.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>> Again, hate speech is in part a legal term and as I defined it
>> > >>>>>> the
>> > >>>>>> other day it is speech that "may incite violence or prejudicial
>> > >>>>>> action
>> > >>>>>> against or by a protected individual or group, or because it
>> > >>>>>> disparages or intimidates a protected individual or group." Say
>> > >>>>>> what
>> > >>>>>> you will but the slavery book classifies as hate speech by this
>> > >>>>>> and
>> > >>>>>> any reasonable definition. And the thought experiment noted
>> > >>>>>> above,
>> > >>>>>> as
>> > >>>>>> well as your unwillingness to try to provide the justification
>> > >>>>>> below
>> > >>>>>> in pretty much ANY context other than this one, shows I'm
>> > >>>>>> correct.
>> > >>>>>> And
>> > >>>>>> I never said the NSA website was "hate speech." It is "violent
>> > >>>>>> rhetoric" and like hate speech it is an example of OFFENSIVE
>> > >>>>>> speech.
>> > >>>>>> Offensive speech is political. Not religious but political. You
>> > >>>>>> seem
>> > >>>>>> blind to that truth.
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>> I think that definition of hate speech is so watered down as to be
>> > >>>>> unworkable. All you have to do is disparage a group and it's hate
>> > >>>>> speech by that definition. I think many people on the far right
>> > >>>>> let
>> > >>>>> their emotions rule their responses too often. There, that would
>> > >>>>> qualify as hate speech.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>> Let me explain something to you. I did not grow up in Idaho. I
>> > >>>>>> did
>> > >>>>>> not
>> > >>>>>> grow up in a place where folks could get away with saying the
>> > >>>>>> kind
>> > >>>>>> of
>> > >>>>>> crap that NSA, No Weatherman, etc. have gotten away with saying.
>> > >>>>>> So
>> > >>>>>> my
>> > >>>>>> experience of all of this and of watching otherwise decent folks
>> > >>>>>> like
>> > >>>>>> yourself defending that crap is a bit jarring. It is unlike
>> > >>>>>> anything
>> > >>>>>> I
>> > >>>>>> could have ever imagined. In the town I grew up in there were
>> > >>>>>> butchers
>> > >>>>>> with numbers tattooed on their forearms. The grandparents of some
>> > >>>>>> of
>> > >>>>>> my friends grew up in concentration camps, as well. Nazi Germany
>> > >>>>>> was
>> > >>>>>> not something I just read about in history books or heard about
>> > >>>>>> in
>> > >>>>>> films. I actually heard some of the stories from actual survivors
>> > >>>>>> of
>> > >>>>>> concentration camps. I saw and interacted with these people
>> > >>>>>> often. I
>> > >>>>>> was told on a regular basis by people who suffered to never
>> > >>>>>> forget
>> > >>>>>> and
>> > >>>>>> I won't.
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>> I prefer to live in a place where people can speak their mind
>> > >>>>> without
>> > >>>>> fear of getting their asses kicked or worse. I think that should
>> > >>>>> be
>> > >>>>> the ideal, not some sort of accident of location to be chastised
>> > >>>>> about.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>> I go back east a few times each year since my family and my best
>> > >>>>>> friends still live there. Years ago I talked about the slavery
>> > >>>>>> book
>> > >>>>>> and the regular criticisms of gays and Muslims. One of the
>> > >>>>>> parents
>> > >>>>>> of
>> > >>>>>> my friend said: "This is how it started in Nazi Germany. They
>> > >>>>>> started
>> > >>>>>> with the gays and with the less populated groups and then moved
>> > >>>>>> on
>> > >>>>>> from there." Years ago intolerance against Mormons would have
>> > >>>>>> been
>> > >>>>>> unthinkable but this year we actually had a man run for political
>> > >>>>>> office whose pastor had insulting comments about Mormons posted
>> > >>>>>> on
>> > >>>>>> his
>> > >>>>>> website. Want to read more local hate speech about Mormons? Look
>> > >>>>>> here:
>> > >>>>>> http://pullman.craigslist.org/rnr/
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> I find it hard to shake the thought that maybe the parent of my
>> > >>>>>> friend
>> > >>>>>> was correct. I go back to New Jersey a few times a year and I run
>> > >>>>>> into
>> > >>>>>> these folks and they ask me how it's going. So I can't ever give
>> > >>>>>> up
>> > >>>>>> the fight to try to shake some sense into this town. It is just
>> > >>>>>> not
>> > >>>>>> possible. Maybe I'm wrong but I'd rather err on the side of
>> > >>>>>> insulting
>> > >>>>>> some idiot who thinks that slavery was a cakewalk than make the
>> > >>>>>> mistake of allowing another Nazi Germany. That is an easy choice
>> > >>>>>> for
>> > >>>>>> me.
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>> I would think that if you best want to fight the kind of
>> > >>>>> totalitarianism exemplified by Nazi Germany, then you would fight
>> > >>>>> for
>> > >>>>> an individual's right to freedom of expression, among other rights
>> > >>>>> like the right to believe as one wishes and the right to be
>> > >>>>> different
>> > >>>>> from the norm. You can't have freedom of expression if you try to
>> > >>>>> define it as anything "not Nazi-like" or whatever your standard
>> > >>>>> is.
>> > >>>>> You have to take the bad with the good, or you don't have anything
>> > >>>>> at
>> > >>>>> all.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> I suspect that if some group tried to do what the Nazis did in
>> > >>>>> Germany here, I'd be one of the first targets. I wouldn't agree
>> > >>>>> with
>> > >>>>> the silencing of opposition voices, and I'd say so loud and clear.
>> > >>>>> I'd be fighting on the "right" side, as far as most people are
>> > >>>>> concerned, which would be a relief from what I'm currently doing
>> > >>>>> which is fighting for viewpoints I don't usually agree with. From
>> > >>>>> my
>> > >>>>> perspective, though, I'd still be fighting for the same thing.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>> And again, I'm not asking you to agree with me. Nor am I trying
>> > >>>>>> to
>> > >>>>>> convince you of anything. Nor am I trying to silence Christ
>> > >>>>>> Church
>> > >>>>>> or
>> > >>>>>> NSA. I'm just asking you and others to stay the hell out of my
>> > >>>>>> way
>> > >>>>>> and
>> > >>>>>> let me say what I wish. You want to allow hateful, offensive
>> > >>>>>> speech
>> > >>>>>> on
>> > >>>>>> regular basis? Fine. I am the natural consequence of your
>> > >>>>>> generous
>> > >>>>>> nature, so you better allow my speech too.
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>> I uphold your right to freedom of expression as much as anyones.
>> > >>>>> My
>> > >>>>> comments aren't meant to try to silence anyone. I'm just trying to
>> > >>>>> put my opinion on the matter out there.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Paul
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>> On Dec 12, 2010, at 11:34 PM, Paul Rumelhart
>> > >>>>>> <godshatter at yahoo.com>
>> > >>>>>> wrote:
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> Are you saying that descriptions of this supposed paradise in
>> > >>>>>>> which
>> > >>>>>>> slaves were treated well and had a harmonious relationship with
>> > >>>>>>> their masters is hate speech? You may disagree with it, lots of
>> > >>>>>>> people whose ancestors had a considerably worse experience that
>> > >>>>>>> he
>> > >>>>>>> describes might disagree with it, but that doesn't make it hate
>> > >>>>>>> speech. I think that he truly believes this, because he knows
>> > >>>>>>> that
>> > >>>>>>> many of the men that owned slaves at that time professed to be
>> > >>>>>>> Christian, and the Bible apparently talks about slavery as an
>> > >>>>>>> everyday occurrence, so it must be something that God would
>> > >>>>>>> approve
>> > >>>>>>> of. So he selectively reads history and picks out what he thinks
>> > >>>>>>> supports this ideal and glosses over what doesn't. A very easy
>> > >>>>>>> trap to fall into. That doesn't make his book hate speech. It
>> > >>>>>>> more than likely makes him wrong (I'm not a historian), but it
>> > >>>>>>> doesn't make it hate speech.
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> And I fully support his right to express his opinions on the
>> > >>>>>>> matter.
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> Paul
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> Joe Campbell wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> "Compare this with the supposedly harmful statements on the NSA
>> > >>>>>>>> website. If our bar is so low that that website can trigger
>> > >>>>>>>> cries
>> > >>>>>>>> of "hate speech", then a veteran debater can argue that almost
>> > >>>>>>>> any
>> > >>>>>>>> website is offensive to somebody."
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> Is this the only example of hate speech from this crowd? For
>> > >>>>>>>> crying out loud, Wilson wrote a BOOK denying the evils of
>> > >>>>>>>> slavery.
>> > >>>>>>>> They were noted by a NATIONAL organization, one that helped
>> > >>>>>>>> remove
>> > >>>>>>>> neo-Nazis up north. Did I make that up too?
>> > >>>>>>>> Again, come back east with me just once and try telling your
>> > >>>>>>>> story
>> > >>>>>>>> to my friends. I no longer wonder how the Nazis took over
>> > >>>>>>>> Germany,
>> > >>>>>>>> I'll tell you that. Well meaning "liberals" like yourself had
>> > >>>>>>>> much
>> > >>>>>>>> to do with it.
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> On Dec 12, 2010, at 8:47 PM, Paul Rumelhart
>> > >>>>>>>> <godshatter at yahoo.com
>> > >>>>>>>> <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>> Ted Moffett wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>> Two separate responses in body of text below. This fourth
>> > >>>>>>>>>> post
>> > >>>>>>>>>> today
>> > >>>>>>>>>> is over the limit for me... so "Good Night," as Ringo Starr
>> > >>>>>>>>>> sang
>> > >>>>>>>>>> it:
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIKugx1sToY
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>> On 12/12/10, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com
>> > >>>>>>>>>> <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Ted Moffett wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Paul Rumelhart godshatter at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2010-December/073155.html
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> "According to my views on freedom of expression, political
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> correctness is
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> a disease that should be purged from the world."
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> and earlier:
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2010-December/073150.html
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> "Just point, laugh, roll your eyes, and move on to fight
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> something that
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> isn't just hyperbole."
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> So after the above advice to "...point, laugh, roll your
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> eyes,
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> and
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> move on..." regarding the New Saint Andrews' website
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> discussion on
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Vision2020, you later state you want to purge the world of
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> the
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> disease
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> political correctness? Why not just "...point, laugh, roll
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> your eyes,
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> and move on..." when someone makes a politically correct
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> statement?
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Are politically correct statements more harmful to the
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> world
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> than
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> statements suggesting violence and hate, as some have
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> interpreted the
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> statements on the NSA website to imply?
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> I see the point you're making. I wasn't suggesting that
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> people
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> point,
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> laugh, and move on to be politically correct, I was
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> suggesting
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> doing
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> that to avoid feeding the trolls. Which is, really, what
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> they
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> are.
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>> It appears the slippage of language strikes again...
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>> I was not saying anyone should "move on to be politically
>> > >>>>>>>>>> correct." I
>> > >>>>>>>>>> was asking, why object so strenuously to those who make
>> > >>>>>>>>>> politically
>> > >>>>>>>>>> correct statements, if this is what you think some on
>> > >>>>>>>>>> Vision2020
>> > >>>>>>>>>> are
>> > >>>>>>>>>> doing, regarding New Saint Andrews' website? What is the
>> > >>>>>>>>>> major
>> > >>>>>>>>>> harm
>> > >>>>>>>>>> in someone making a politically correct statement on
>> > >>>>>>>>>> Vision2020,
>> > >>>>>>>>>> if
>> > >>>>>>>>>> this is truly what is occuring (I am not saying it is...)?
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>> Are these statements more harmful than statements that
>> > >>>>>>>>>> suggest
>> > >>>>>>>>>> violence and hate, as some found the statements on the NSA
>> > >>>>>>>>>> website? I
>> > >>>>>>>>>> understand you do not think there is any real threat implied
>> > >>>>>>>>>> by
>> > >>>>>>>>>> the
>> > >>>>>>>>>> NSA website, but others perhaps disagree. What is the major
>> > >>>>>>>>>> problem
>> > >>>>>>>>>> with expressing differing opinions regarding the NSA website?
>> > >>>>>>>>>> Maybe
>> > >>>>>>>>>> there are more important topics, but Vision2020 often focuses
>> > >>>>>>>>>> on
>> > >>>>>>>>>> what
>> > >>>>>>>>>> I think are not very important issues.
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>> I think that the societal self-censorship of certain topics
>> > >>>>>>>>> under
>> > >>>>>>>>> the
>> > >>>>>>>>> guise of political correctness has a negative effect in the
>> > >>>>>>>>> long
>> > >>>>>>>>> run. It stops the average Joe Public from speaking his mind
>> > >>>>>>>>> freely about what
>> > >>>>>>>>> he perceives to be negative traits of a certain race, creed,
>> > >>>>>>>>> or
>> > >>>>>>>>> whatever
>> > >>>>>>>>> and it keeps people from being offended, but Joe has not
>> > >>>>>>>>> changed
>> > >>>>>>>>> his
>> > >>>>>>>>> mind - he's just learned to keep his thoughts to himself. He
>> > >>>>>>>>> may
>> > >>>>>>>>> harbor
>> > >>>>>>>>> a hatred of people of a specific type, and may have no simple
>> > >>>>>>>>> way
>> > >>>>>>>>> of
>> > >>>>>>>>> blowing off steam. So he has a run-in with one someday, and
>> > >>>>>>>>> gets
>> > >>>>>>>>> violent. Or he learns to not promote anyone in his company of
>> > >>>>>>>>> that type
>> > >>>>>>>>> of person, because it's one way of getting back at them. You
>> > >>>>>>>>> get
>> > >>>>>>>>> the
>> > >>>>>>>>> idea. If there were no societal prohibitions about talking
>> > >>>>>>>>> about
>> > >>>>>>>>> it, he
>> > >>>>>>>>> might learn that other people like people of that type just
>> > >>>>>>>>> fine,
>> > >>>>>>>>> and
>> > >>>>>>>>> that they are actually really nice, usually. He might even get
>> > >>>>>>>>> in a
>> > >>>>>>>>> discussion with one that turns into a friendship, after the
>> > >>>>>>>>> first
>> > >>>>>>>>> bit of
>> > >>>>>>>>> arguing and name-calling dies down.
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>> Compare this with the supposedly harmful statements on the NSA
>> > >>>>>>>>> website. If our bar is so low that that website can trigger
>> > >>>>>>>>> cries of "hate
>> > >>>>>>>>> speech", then a veteran debater can argue that almost any
>> > >>>>>>>>> website
>> > >>>>>>>>> is
>> > >>>>>>>>> offensive to somebody. I'd rather save the phrase to describe
>> > >>>>>>>>> things
>> > >>>>>>>>> that are undeniably hate speech. What's the harm in having
>> > >>>>>>>>> some
>> > >>>>>>>>> language like that on their website? People might get a bad
>> > >>>>>>>>> impression
>> > >>>>>>>>> of Moscow is one reason I've heard. Tough. We can only control
>> > >>>>>>>>> what we
>> > >>>>>>>>> do ourselves. We don't have the right to try to censor others.
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>> If people think that there is a real threat on the website,
>> > >>>>>>>>> call
>> > >>>>>>>>> the
>> > >>>>>>>>> police. Making threats is against the law. Just be aware that
>> > >>>>>>>>> they
>> > >>>>>>>>> have a definition of "threat" that the website may fail to
>> > >>>>>>>>> meet.
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>> I don't have a problem with people expressing their views.
>> > >>>>>>>>> It's
>> > >>>>>>>>> just my
>> > >>>>>>>>> opinion that if they really valued freedom of expression then
>> > >>>>>>>>> they
>> > >>>>>>>>> wouldn't be talking about this subject so much. I do value
>> > >>>>>>>>> freedom of
>> > >>>>>>>>> expression, which is why I'm talking about what my concept of
>> > >>>>>>>>> it
>> > >>>>>>>>> is here.
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>> Your response suggests you think the NSA website should not
>> > >>>>>>>>>> be a
>> > >>>>>>>>>> focus
>> > >>>>>>>>>> of discussion to "avoid feeding the trolls." But in
>> > >>>>>>>>>> responding
>> > >>>>>>>>>> on
>> > >>>>>>>>>> Vision2020 to what you have implied, it seems, is politically
>> > >>>>>>>>>> correct
>> > >>>>>>>>>> criticism regarding NSA, are you feeding those politically
>> > >>>>>>>>>> correct
>> > >>>>>>>>>> "trolls? You are certainly helping to keep the focus on the
>> > >>>>>>>>>> NSA
>> > >>>>>>>>>> website discussion in this thread, by referencing it in your
>> > >>>>>>>>>> first
>> > >>>>>>>>>> post.
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>> I think the person that wrote that blurb on that website was
>> > >>>>>>>>> hoping for
>> > >>>>>>>>> this kind of reaction. They were trolling the people that
>> > >>>>>>>>> watch
>> > >>>>>>>>> them,
>> > >>>>>>>>> and a few of them took the bait. If you don't want trolls to
>> > >>>>>>>>> continue
>> > >>>>>>>>> trolling, then your best bet is to simply ignore them. Point,
>> > >>>>>>>>> laugh,
>> > >>>>>>>>> roll your eyes, and move on. If that's all the reaction they
>> > >>>>>>>>> get,
>> > >>>>>>>>> they'll find someone else to bait. That's the method I've
>> > >>>>>>>>> learned that
>> > >>>>>>>>> works best after 20+ years of interacting in Internet forums.
>> > >>>>>>>>> It
>> > >>>>>>>>> didn't
>> > >>>>>>>>> have anything to do with trying to suppress the actual point
>> > >>>>>>>>> they
>> > >>>>>>>>> were
>> > >>>>>>>>> trying to make.
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>> Again, why not just "...point, laugh, roll your eyes..." at
>> > >>>>>>>>>> the
>> > >>>>>>>>>> criticisms of NSA, rather than make more of an issue of it,
>> > >>>>>>>>>> as
>> > >>>>>>>>>> you
>> > >>>>>>>>>> advised regarding the NSA website? You think, if I have
>> > >>>>>>>>>> understood
>> > >>>>>>>>>> you correctly, that these criticisms are somehow creating ill
>> > >>>>>>>>>> will
>> > >>>>>>>>>> between NSA and those of differing ideologies. So I suppose
>> > >>>>>>>>>> you
>> > >>>>>>>>>> think
>> > >>>>>>>>>> that less criticism of NSA will encourage them to express
>> > >>>>>>>>>> more
>> > >>>>>>>>>> tolerance of "secularists?" I doubt it. When an insititution
>> > >>>>>>>>>> of
>> > >>>>>>>>>> higher learning, NSA, frames its mission aggressively against
>> > >>>>>>>>>> others
>> > >>>>>>>>>> who do not share their ideology, to argue this approach
>> > >>>>>>>>>> should
>> > >>>>>>>>>> only
>> > >>>>>>>>>> arouse a "...point, laugh, roll your eyes..." response,
>> > >>>>>>>>>> appears
>> > >>>>>>>>>> to be
>> > >>>>>>>>>> an attempt to silence public discussion on substantive issues
>> > >>>>>>>>>> that
>> > >>>>>>>>>> effect many people, which it also appears you cannot be
>> > >>>>>>>>>> advocating,
>> > >>>>>>>>>> given your emphasis on freedom of expression.
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>> For one, I don't care if they ever learn to have a better
>> > >>>>>>>>> opinion
>> > >>>>>>>>> of
>> > >>>>>>>>> secularists. Their education on religion is none of my
>> > >>>>>>>>> concern.
>> > >>>>>>>>> They
>> > >>>>>>>>> can go to the grave believing that secularists are out to hunt
>> > >>>>>>>>> them down
>> > >>>>>>>>> and convert them. I don't really care. I don't feel the need
>> > >>>>>>>>> to
>> > >>>>>>>>> make
>> > >>>>>>>>> sure that everyone agrees with what I say or think like I do.
>> > >>>>>>>>> In
>> > >>>>>>>>> fact,
>> > >>>>>>>>> I'd hate a world like that. My stance is simple. Everyone has
>> > >>>>>>>>> the
>> > >>>>>>>>> right to think whatever they want, believe whatever they want,
>> > >>>>>>>>> and have
>> > >>>>>>>>> whatever view of whatever topic they want. I don't care how
>> > >>>>>>>>> horrendous
>> > >>>>>>>>> their beliefs or views are to others. I also believe that they
>> > >>>>>>>>> have the
>> > >>>>>>>>> right to express those views however they want, keeping in
>> > >>>>>>>>> mind
>> > >>>>>>>>> that
>> > >>>>>>>>> they don't have the right to force others to listen to them,
>> > >>>>>>>>> and
>> > >>>>>>>>> they
>> > >>>>>>>>> don't have the right to harm others. If they want to put on
>> > >>>>>>>>> the
>> > >>>>>>>>> website
>> > >>>>>>>>> that they think that secularists probably eat children for
>> > >>>>>>>>> breakfast, so
>> > >>>>>>>>> what? If someone goes out and beats up a secularist because of
>> > >>>>>>>>> it, then
>> > >>>>>>>>> the responsibility for that action falls on the shoulders of
>> > >>>>>>>>> the
>> > >>>>>>>>> person
>> > >>>>>>>>> that committed that action. There are very few cases where I
>> > >>>>>>>>> would
>> > >>>>>>>>> advocate for censoring their website. The text they have on it
>> > >>>>>>>>> now
>> > >>>>>>>>> doesn't even come close.
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>> Also, to claim the debate regarding fundamentalist
>> > >>>>>>>>>> Christianity
>> > >>>>>>>>>> and
>> > >>>>>>>>>> secularism, and the political tactics involved, is not worth
>> > >>>>>>>>>> public
>> > >>>>>>>>>> discussion, is on the face of it, not credible, given the
>> > >>>>>>>>>> power
>> > >>>>>>>>>> that
>> > >>>>>>>>>> fundamentalist Christianity has over the political system.
>> > >>>>>>>>>> Consider
>> > >>>>>>>>>> that Idaho is one of the Super DOMA states
>> > >>>>>>>>>> ( http://www.danpinello.com/SuperDOMAs.htm ). There is no
>> > >>>>>>>>>> doubt
>> > >>>>>>>>>> that
>> > >>>>>>>>>> this law is in part the result of a religious view that NSA
>> > >>>>>>>>>> shares
>> > >>>>>>>>>> with other fundamentalist Christians in Idaho. And they vote.
>> > >>>>>>>>>> As
>> > >>>>>>>>>> they did regarding the ridiculous topless ordinance the
>> > >>>>>>>>>> Moscow
>> > >>>>>>>>>> City
>> > >>>>>>>>>> Council passed.
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>> It's not my stance that people shouldn't talk about
>> > >>>>>>>>> fundamentalist
>> > >>>>>>>>> Christianity and the ills they imagine are there. I just think
>> > >>>>>>>>> that
>> > >>>>>>>>> people that I've been assuming all along are for freedom of
>> > >>>>>>>>> expression
>> > >>>>>>>>> shouldn't get so bent out of shape when something somebody
>> > >>>>>>>>> says
>> > >>>>>>>>> offends
>> > >>>>>>>>> them. I'm not trying to force them to shut up, I really don't
>> > >>>>>>>>> care. What did provoke me to write my little diatribe were
>> > >>>>>>>>> indications that
>> > >>>>>>>>> some sort of attempt to silence the NSA people might be coming
>> > >>>>>>>>> up. I
>> > >>>>>>>>> misinterpreted what Nick said about the Chamber of Commerce,
>> > >>>>>>>>> but
>> > >>>>>>>>> at the
>> > >>>>>>>>> time I thought they were advocating for taking the site down.
>> > >>>>>>>>> I
>> > >>>>>>>>> also
>> > >>>>>>>>> saw references to "hate speech", which is a sensitive button
>> > >>>>>>>>> of
>> > >>>>>>>>> mine. I'd hate for a statement that more or less says "we
>> > >>>>>>>>> fight
>> > >>>>>>>>> secularism as
>> > >>>>>>>>> an ideal" to lead to someone being convicted of some sort of
>> > >>>>>>>>> "hate
>> > >>>>>>>>> crime". Stranger things have happened.
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>> All I'm doing is advocating for true freedom of expression.
>> > >>>>>>>>> Let
>> > >>>>>>>>> people
>> > >>>>>>>>> say what they like. It's better for all of us in the end.
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>> To state you are not afraid of being physically attacked by
>> > >>>>>>>>>> anyone
>> > >>>>>>>>>> from NSA, nor where you offended, given the rhetoric on their
>> > >>>>>>>>>> website,
>> > >>>>>>>>>> does not address the real influence based on behavior that
>> > >>>>>>>>>> such
>> > >>>>>>>>>> rhetoric has on the local, state and national level,
>> > >>>>>>>>>> regarding
>> > >>>>>>>>>> at
>> > >>>>>>>>>> least four very important issues (I'll skip the alleged
>> > >>>>>>>>>> association
>> > >>>>>>>>>> with racist groups and the debate regarding Wilson's book
>> > >>>>>>>>>> "Southern
>> > >>>>>>>>>> Slavery As It Was"): gay and women's rights, religious
>> > >>>>>>>>>> tolerance
>> > >>>>>>>>>> and
>> > >>>>>>>>>> understanding between those of all religions, spiritual
>> > >>>>>>>>>> worldviews, or
>> > >>>>>>>>>> those of no particular persuasion on these matters, and the
>> > >>>>>>>>>> US
>> > >>>>>>>>>> pursuit
>> > >>>>>>>>>> of the so called "war on terror," which as everyone knows is
>> > >>>>>>>>>> tainted
>> > >>>>>>>>>> with religious prejudice and misunderstandings here in the US
>> > >>>>>>>>>> and
>> > >>>>>>>>>> internationally, by those of differing religions:
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>> 
>>http://atheism.about.com/od/sarahpalinreligion/tp/SarahPalinReligionScience.htm
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> From website above:
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>> In a speech to high school kids at her church, Sarah Palin
>> > >>>>>>>>>> said:
>> > >>>>>>>>>> "Pray...that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending
>> > >>>>>>>>>> [our
>> > >>>>>>>>>> military men and women] out on a task that is from God.
>> > >>>>>>>>>> That's
>> > >>>>>>>>>> what we
>> > >>>>>>>>>> have to make sure that we are praying for, that there is a
>> > >>>>>>>>>> plan
>> > >>>>>>>>>> and
>> > >>>>>>>>>> that that plan is God's plan."
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>> I'm all for people discussing these issues. I'm not for any
>> > >>>>>>>>> attempt to
>> > >>>>>>>>> get the NSA to change their website other than simple pleas
>> > >>>>>>>>> that
>> > >>>>>>>>> they do so. What people are discussing is not the implications
>> > >>>>>>>>> of their
>> > >>>>>>>>> viewpoints on secularism, they are discussing whether or not
>> > >>>>>>>>> their text
>> > >>>>>>>>> is violent and whether or not something should be done about
>> > >>>>>>>>> it.
>> > >>>>>>>>> Prejudice about religion or lack of religion can be a problem,
>> > >>>>>>>>> it's
>> > >>>>>>>>> true. As long as no one is censoring anyone, then I hope that
>> > >>>>>>>>> debate
>> > >>>>>>>>> rages along nicely. I just haven't seen much of it on here
>> > >>>>>>>>> with
>> > >>>>>>>>> regards
>> > >>>>>>>>> to this topic. I admit, though, that I haven't been following
>> > >>>>>>>>> it
>> > >>>>>>>>> all
>> > >>>>>>>>> that close. I just thought I'd go ahead and elucidate my
>> > >>>>>>>>> thoughts on
>> > >>>>>>>>> the subject of freedom of expression, and hopefully others
>> > >>>>>>>>> would
>> > >>>>>>>>> put
>> > >>>>>>>>> this in perspective.
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>> Paul
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> "Political correctness" could be defined to suit whatever I
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> want to
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> purge from society. Advocating purging a point of view is
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> alarming
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> language. Perhaps you were making a joke of some sort in
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> this
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> comment, and I am missing the joke by taking you literally?
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> But consider this example: I define publicly exposing
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> undercover CIA
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> government assassins as a "politically correct" agenda,
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> that
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> must be
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> "purged" to protect the necessary for national security
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> assassinations
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> carried out in secret by the CIA.. Thus in purging
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> political
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> correctness in this example, I am supporting government
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> secrecy
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> regarding CIA assassinations. It might be justifed to purge
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> somone
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> planning to expose undercover CIA assassins, to protect
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> national
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> security.
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Some examples of what might be reasonably defined as
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> "politically
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> correct" can be viewed as idealistic ethically laudable
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> behaviors, the
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> sort of behaviors it seems you would aprove given your
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> support
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> for
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Wikileaks.
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> I think you are taking me too literally. It's not
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> politically
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> correct
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> statements, which is basically any statement not involving
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> race,
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> religion, gender, or sexual orientation in a negative light,
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> that I
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> object to. It's people feeling like they cannot make
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> politically
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> incorrect statements because of some sort of societal
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> pressure
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> that I
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> think is a problem. When I said that I think "political
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> correctness" is
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> a problem, I was referring to the very idea that there are
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> things that
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> we cannot talk about because they might offend somebody,
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> which
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> is an
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> idea I object to. Not talking about any one of these areas
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> as
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> a society
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> helps only in the short term. Real discussion is what heals
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> wounds,
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> societal pressure towards silence only makes them fester.
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> You're example above referring to political assassination
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> isn't
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> the sort
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> of political correctness I was referring to, but while we
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> are
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> on the
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> subject, I would say that keeping information about the
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> whereabouts and
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> covers for assassins should be kept secret. However, the
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> fact
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> that the
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> US government is sanctioning assassinations should be out in
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> the open so
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> that the American people can let their congressmen know
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> whether
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> or not
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> they think the US should be engaging in such behavior.
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Paul
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>> I agree that political correctness can be used to censor, of
>> > >>>>>>>>>> course,
>> > >>>>>>>>>> can create a climate of fear that blocks freedom of
>> > >>>>>>>>>> expression,
>> > >>>>>>>>>> and
>> > >>>>>>>>>> can impede Democracy and the power of the Fourth Estate. Look
>> > >>>>>>>>>> at what
>> > >>>>>>>>>> happened to Bill Maher, or the US media coverage of the build
>> > >>>>>>>>>> up
>> > >>>>>>>>>> to
>> > >>>>>>>>>> the invasion of Iraq, especially, a shameful and frightening
>> > >>>>>>>>>> example
>> > >>>>>>>>>> of media seized by a form of patriotic political correctness
>> > >>>>>>>>>> that kept
>> > >>>>>>>>>> the US public woefully misinformed. The example of the firing
>> > >>>>>>>>>> of Imus
>> > >>>>>>>>>> for the "nappy-headed hos" comment some argue is an example
>> > >>>>>>>>>> of
>> > >>>>>>>>>> the
>> > >>>>>>>>>> abuse of political correctness. I wonder if you think Imus
>> > >>>>>>>>>> should
>> > >>>>>>>>>> have been fired for what some claim was an explictly racist
>> > >>>>>>>>>> comment?
>> > >>>>>>>>>> I recall Imus meeting the women basketball players he
>> > >>>>>>>>>> referred
>> > >>>>>>>>>> to in
>> > >>>>>>>>>> this manner, where he apologized, and they asserted they were
>> > >>>>>>>>>> deeply
>> > >>>>>>>>>> offended by his statement.
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>> I knew that you were not referring to the sort of political
>> > >>>>>>>>>> correctness I used as an example, regarding CIA assassins. I
>> > >>>>>>>>>> was
>> > >>>>>>>>>> simply saying that advocating purging something from society,
>> > >>>>>>>>>> like
>> > >>>>>>>>>> political correctness, is alarming language, that can be
>> > >>>>>>>>>> twisted
>> > >>>>>>>>>> to
>> > >>>>>>>>>> suit nefarious agendas. I was making no statement on the
>> > >>>>>>>>>> appropriateness of exposing CIA assassins, only using this as
>> > >>>>>>>>>> an
>> > >>>>>>>>>> example. My example was probably not a good one to make my
>> > >>>>>>>>>> point.
>> > >>>>>>>>>> But given you stated I was taking you too literally, I'll not
>> > >>>>>>>>>> construct a better example.
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Vision2020 Post: Ted Moffett
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/12/10, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I just thought I'd weigh in here with a little diatribe of
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> own.
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I think the freedom of an individual or group of
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> individuals
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> to express
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves is sacrosanct. The freedom to express your
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> opinion should be
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> held dearly by everyone, if they want to live in a free
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> society.
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> There are very few limits that should be placed on speech,
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> my humble
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> opinion, most having to do with statements of facts and
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> opinions. I
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> agree with libel laws, for example. On the other hand, I
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> disagree with
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> obscenity laws probably universally. If groups want to get
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> together and
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> form islands of information in which certain ideas are
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> suppressed, I'm
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> for that, too, as long as other options exist. For
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> example,
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> if someone
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> wanted to create a separate internet targeted at children
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> that enforced
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> it's own censorship, I would be OK with that. If parents
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> were OK with
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> their kids surfing unrestrained on the Big Bad Internet,
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> then
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> should be allowed to do so without repercussions if their
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> child ends up
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> on a porn site or a site about Islam or whatever your
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> favorite boogey
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> man is.
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> As an aside, this is why I support Wikileaks. Our
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> government
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> works *for
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> us*. They should only have secrets in very narrowly
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> defined
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> areas for
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> very specific reasons. And no, "they shouldn't see it
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> because it will
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> make our leaders look like hypocrites" does not qualify.
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> people
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> behind Wikileaks are exposing secrets that shouldn't be
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> secrets in a
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> reasonable world.
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> According to my views on freedom of expression, political
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> correctness is
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> a disease that should be purged from the world. Instead of
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> helping, it
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> just sweeps the problem under the rug. If a person hates
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> blacks because
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of an incident when they were younger, or because they
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> don't like
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> people who are "different", then they should be free to
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> express that
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> opinion. Others will likely disagree, and a dialogue will
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> probably
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> ensue, but this is healthy. This tendency by people to
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> shun
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> these sorts
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of debates is unhealthy for society (in my opinion,
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway).
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> In an effort to totally ostracize myself from the
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> community,
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I might as
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> well go ahead and add that I also disagree with some of
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> child
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> pornography laws as they exist on the books, as they
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> relate
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> to freedom
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of expression. These laws have been expanded so much under
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the guise of
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> "save the children" that they are insane. In Australia,
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> one
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> man was
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> arrested for having downloaded a drawing of Bart Simpson
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> engaged in
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> having sex, and was convicted under that countries child
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> pornography
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> laws. In Iowa, another man was arrested for possessing
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> manga
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> comics
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> from Japan that contained drawings of children having sex.
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Was Bart
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Simpson actually hurt by this? Or the fictional Japanese
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> schoolgirl? I
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> can understand the prohibition against possession of real
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> child porn
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> (because it creates a market for such things) though I
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> agree with
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> it completely. I think it should be a prohibition against
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> *distribution* of child pornography, not simply
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> "possession",
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> if for no
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> other reason than people might be likely to hand it over
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> law
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> enforcement without the fear of going to jail themselves.
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Prohibition
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> against "virtual porn" is crazy and needs to be fought.
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> So what does this mean to us? It means that if something
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> offends you,
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> you should suck it up and learn to live with it. Grow some
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> thicker skin
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and see if you can find a sense of humor on sale
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> somewhere.
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Freedom of
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> expression, if that's a concept you agree with, has to
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> trump
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> "freedom
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> from being offended". The minute you allow the idea that
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> some things
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> are just too horrible to be read or viewed, then you've
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> thrown the
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> concept of freedom of expression out the window. Now
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> you'll
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> have a
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> slippery slope where the definition of "too horrible"
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> tends
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> to match the
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> ideals of the people who are in power at any given moment.
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> The odd irony for people who really believe in freedom of
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> expression is
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> that they most often end up defending things that they
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> might
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> vehemently
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> disagree with. They defend the speech of people they
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> simply
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> don't like
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> or don't agree with, and they defend speech they are
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> personally offended
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> by because the speech that everyone agrees with is not
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> threatened.
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Very little offends me, but even if I was offended by the
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> NSA
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> website,
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> which I wasn't, then I would still be fighting for their
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> right to be as
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> inane with their metaphors as they wish. I applaud them,
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> really, for
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> not rushing to change the page in an orgy of political
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> correctness.
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Paul
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>> =======================================================
>> > >>>>>>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> > >>>>>>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> > >>>>>>>>> http://www.fsr.net
>> > >>>>>>>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> > >>>>>>>>> =======================================================
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > =======================================================
>> > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> > > http://www.fsr.net
>> > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> > > =======================================================
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> > "The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to
>> > change
>> > and the Realist adjusts his sails."
>> >
>> > - Unknown
>> >
>> >
>> > =======================================================
>> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> > http://www.fsr.net
>> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> > =======================================================
>
>