[Vision2020] Fwd: Keim on the Frequency of discussing Christ Church and NSA on Vision 2020

[Darrell Keim]

Joe:

The data is out there:
http://vision2020.moscow.com/
Everything said since the start of the listserv.
I wouldn't advocate for taking the time to analyze it.

My opinion was based on reading the listserv for the past 10(?) years, as
you say below; seeing how the atmosphere of the listserv has changed; and
asking myself whether we continue to meet our mission now that a whole
element of Moscow was made uncomfortable enough that they left.

Please don't assume I am conservative.

On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 2:14 PM, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>wrote:

> One more point. To even come close to backing your point up you would
> need to do research for 4 hours a day for how ever many months you are
> talking about. The last 6 months, 24 hours; the last 12 months, 48
> hours. There is no way that you have this data. Ergo, you made an
> assertion based on comments from your conservative friends and your
> own personal experience. Is that the standard for evidence that you
> are suggesting for accusations about groups of people: hearsay and
> anecdotal evidence? Shouldn't we reach for higher standards? Best, Joe
>
> On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 1:39 PM, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Darrell,
> >
> > Here's the point, which you seem to have missed. You made several
> > accusations about the V's obsession with Christ Church and NSA (see
> > below). You did not back any of them up -- not even when I asked you
> > to do so during our original exchange. You make a comment below that
> > my analysis is somewhat skewed -- "RE the month of November." But the
> > point is that you made a harmful, prejudicial accusation that you
> > STILL have yet to back up.
> >
> > I spent 4 hours today finding data that should convince you that your
> > accusation might be false and has no basis in terms of recent posts on
> > the V. If you think it has a basis, spend a little time to back it up.
> > Or admit that you really don't know what you're talking about and that
> > your opinion is based on hearsay from your conservative friends and
> > nothing more. This is a harmful accusation that leads folks to dismiss
> > the V for no reason. So far there is no evidence that you are doing
> > more than spreading vicious rumors against your political opponents.
> > If you're not, back your comments up and admit they have no basis.
> >
> > I'm not sure what the 3 things to think about below are meant to
> > suggest but they sound insulting. I'd appreciate it if you stopped
> > giving advice to me as if you knew me, which you don't. Let's just try
> > to stick to the issues, which you are still managing to avoid.
> >
> > Best, Joe
> >
> > On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 11:45 AM, Darrell Keim <keim152 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Joe:
> >> A quick tip of the metaphorical hat.  Great analysis.  I would've
> enjoyed
> >> discussing it with you while we were debating.
> >> I agree with everything you said RE the month of November.
> >> I will enjoy your future postings if they are of this caliber.
> >>
> >> On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 11:24 AM, Joe Campbell <
> philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I did a brief amount of research, checking out the frequency that
> >>> folks on Vision 2020 talk about Christ Church or NSA and it is clear
> >>> that Darrell Keim has over exaggerated that frequency, at least when
> >>> it comes to RECENT discussion on Vision 2020. It might be the case
> >>> that the topic was discussed more often a while ago but in terms of
> >>> the NOVEMBER topics, the discussion is limited at best. The funny
> >>> thing is, next to me the person who discussed CC or NSA the most on
> >>> this list in November was Darrell! In short, this is not a topic
> >>> discussed much any more by anyone other than myself. Even in my case,
> >>> I mentioned CC and NSA in the last month less than 30% of the time,
> >>> and the vast majority of those cases were in the discussions I had
> >>> with Darrell. If Darrell and I had not debated about the issue, there
> >>> would have been fewer than 10 passing references to CC or NSA during
> >>> the month of November. I'm not sure of the total number of posts but
> >>> it is in the hundreds.
> >>>
> >>> Again, this is just a cross section but it illustrates that not only
> >>> were Darrell's continual assertions about Vision 2020s obsession with
> >>> CC and NSA (see below) unsupported, something he at no time tried to
> >>> fix by doing some research of his own, they are in fact, at least with
> >>> respect to recent postings, flat-out incorrect. I challenge Darrell to
> >>> come up with some RECENT data to support his claims (no use rehearsing
> >>> the past, as Darrell has said) or to admit that in fact his claims
> >>> were incorrect and there was NO reason for him to raise a fuse in the
> >>> first place.
> >>>
> >>> First I'll list the data followed by some analysis followed by the
> >>> assertions that Darrell has made which are refuted by the data. I am
> >>> not a social scientist, so if someone else has recent findings that go
> >>> against my claims, please bring them forth. Prejudicial claims by
> >>> conservatives to the contrary don't count as DATA, by the way. Again,
> >>> I choose the most recent month (took me about 4 hours this morning to
> >>> compile the data by the way) but if someone else wants to investigate
> >>> another RECENT month, please do so.
> >>>
> >>> Again, I just checked November in part because this was a recent month
> >>> where the issue of CC/NSA explicitly came up. I lost count in my case,
> >>> so the number of 15 is an estimate. But it is clear by looking at my
> >>> postings this month that far fewer than half of the time did I talk
> >>> about CC/NSA. And I am willing to admit my own obsession with CC/NSA.
> >>> That is pretty well known! In some of the cases the discussion was
> >>> really about whether I should talk about CC/NSA and in most cases I
> >>> discuss topics that are not directly related to CC/NSA. In the other
> >>> case, the numbers refer to even passing references, not the explicit
> >>> mention of "Christ Church" or "Douglas Wilson" or "New Saint Andrews."
> >>> Thus, when a name or intended reference was mentioned, even if in
> >>> passing in a post about a completely different topic, I counted it.
> >>>
> >>> Joe Campbell                    15/52
> >>> Art Deco                        5/43
> >>> Keely Mix                       5/33
> >>> Tom Hansen                      4/105
> >>> Nick Gier                       2/8
> >>> Moscow Cares                    0/15
> >>> Saundra Lund                    0/14
> >>> Andreas Schou           0/12
> >>> Debi Smith                      0/9
> >>> Carl Westberg                   0/8
> >>> Bill London                     0/5
> >>> Ralph Nielsen                   0/4
> >>> Rosemary Huskey         0/2
> >>>
> >>> This is a list of some of the folks that we might expect to be talking
> >>> about CC/NSA. Note that in Keely's case, the 5 instances include 2
> >>> where there was merely a passing reference. In each of Tom's 4
> >>> instances there is NO explicit reference to either CC or NSA. Here are
> >>> some conservatives/moderates worth noting:
> >>>
> >>> Darrell Keim                    8/15
> >>> Gary Crabtree                   0/26
> >>> Roger Falen                     0/26
> >>> Dan Carscallen          0/5
> >>> Jeff Harkins                    0/3
> >>>
> >>> Again, notice that Darrell comes in number 2, next to me, in terms of
> >>> posts discussing Christ Church and/or NSA for the month of November!
> >>> It can't be the frequency of our discussion that disturbs him
> >>> otherwise he'd have been better off NOT offering any criticisms to
> >>> begin with.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> There were 3 posts that got the lion's share of CC/NSA attention.
> >>>
> >>> Crusaders vs. Infidels: Moscow’s Muscular Christianity
> >>> 11 posts, though 2 were off topic. Joe (3); Darrell (2); Nick; Keely;
> >>> Wayne (Art Deco); Tom. All of these are noted above.
> >>>
> >>> Curiosity Question
> >>> 21 posts, some of which (Roger's insult, my response, Tom's apology)
> >>> were off topic. Joe (9); Darrell (8); Tom (2); Roger; Keely. All of
> >>> these are noted above.
> >>>
> >>> Health Education: A Conspiracy?
> >>> 22 posts; only 6 reference CC or NSA; 3 of these were noted above.
> >>>
> >>> That gives us 42 posts for the month of December, the vast majority of
> >>> which were made AFTER Darrell made his initial accusation (Nov 28) and
> >>> 8 of which were made by Darrell himself.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Here are some of Darrell's recent assertions about Vision 2020 and its
> >>> obsession with CC/NSA, which seem to have been refuted:
> >>> “The churches and schools which you hint at below have been well
> >>> analyzed on this list.” (Nov 28 12:25:29)
> >>>
> >>> “… this topic has been well discussed on this list …” (Nov 28 14:32:45)
> >>>
> >>> “Unfortunately, this listserv seems like a one note instrument when
> >>> almost everything is linked to that same topic.” (Nov 28 16:42:16)
> >>>
> >>> “It just doesn’t seem like v2020 benefits from having the topic come
> >>> up so often.” (Nov 28 18:10:08)
> >>>
> >>> “And, to clarify my position I did not complain about NSA criticism on
> >>> V2020. I complained about the amount of NSA criticism on v2020.  Too
> >>> recap: I initially complained about how often things, such as the
> >>> church list Tom posted, get linked back to CC.  When you pressed in a
> >>> later note I elaborated that unless we had new info or something
> >>> changed, it seems like most of the key players already know where they
> >>> stand.  Thus, my belief that further discussion doesn’t seem to be of
> >>> benefit.” (Dec 1 00:17:15)
> >>>
> >>> “I have no problem with NSA criticism, or praise for that matter, on
> >>> V2020. I just wish the topic didn’t have to come up with such
> >>> frequency.” (Dec 1 00:17:15)
> >>>
> >>> “Do they [Christ Church and NSA] constantly post on Vision 2020 about
> >>> the same thing over and over and over and over and over... ad
> >>> infinitum?  No, in fact they were pretty much run-off v2020 by folks
> >>> that found them offensive (which would seem to violate points 1 AND 2
> >>> of our Mission Statement).” (Dec 1 00:17:15)
> >>>
> >>> “If those issues came up with the same frequency as Christ Church, and
> >>> no real change bringing in new info to discuss, I might.” (Dec 1
> >>> 00:17:15)
> >>>
> >>> “None of those topics, or any other, get near the coverage on V2020
> >>> that Christ Church does.  Too make an analogy: V2020 is like a
> >>> household water spigot for most topics.  It is a fire hose for Christ
> >>> Church topics.  I’d simply like to see the fire hose turned down.”
> >>> (Dec 1 18:11:24)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> 3 things to think about:
> >> 1.  A diplomat is someone who can tell you to go to hell in such a way
> that
> >> you will look forward to the trip.
> >> 2.  To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you
> hit
> >> the target.
> >> 3.  Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and
> beat
> >> you with experience.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
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