[Vision2020] Crusaders vs. Infidels: Moscow's Muscular Christianity

Wed Dec 1 22:35:33 PST 2010

While I understand Matt & Sam's opinions & have some sympathy, I agree with
Reggie.  Further, I'm enjoying the exchange & find it thought-provoking
(although I personally with the dialogue could be a bit less . . . heated).
I find myself thinking about points each has made while I'm doing mundane
chores like shoveling snow, which I appreciate.

For those who are tired of the exchange, the Delete key works well.

JMHO,

Saundra Lund

Moscow, ID

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
nothing.

~ Edmund Burke

***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2010 through life plus
70 years, Saundra Lund.  Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside
the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the
author.*****

From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
On Behalf Of Reggie Holmquist
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 10:17 PM
To: Sam Scripter
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Crusaders vs. Infidels: Moscow's Muscular
Christianity

These two have just as much right to discourse on this channel as anyone
else.  If you don't like it, maybe don't read the messages, but please do
not disparage them for their enthusiasm in discussing important issues of
the day.  Rather, that sort of thing should be encouraged.  Remarks like
yours make me wonder:  Is it any wonder we have such an apathetic society?

With Much Respect,
Reggie

On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 9:41 PM, Sam Scripter <MoscowSam at charter.net> wrote:

Matt Decker wrote: 

Darrell and Joe,

You two have WAY too much time on your hands............

Matt D

AMEN! [Re Matt, above]

Why don't you two take it off-line?  Enough is enough. 

Sam Scripter

  _____  

From: philosopher.joe at gmail.com
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 21:19:59 -0800
To: keim153 at gmail.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Crusaders vs. Infidels: Moscow's Muscular
Christianity

Who, what, when? Back the claims up with specific examples.

On Dec 1, 2010, at 6:08 PM, Darrell Keim <keim153 at gmail.com> wrote:

We'll have to agree to disagree on this, Sunil.  Run off is a strong term,
but it is the closest I can come to what seemed to be happening at the time.
While some, such as D. Wilson almost seemed to enjoy stirring up V2020 and
deserved to be questioned, others seemed to be gone after simply because
they were CC members.  Perhaps this didn't specifically happen on the
listserv-enough happened on both the listserv and in town that I can't
recall what happened where-CC members were uncomfortable enough that they
are no longer a part of the community conversation that v2020 was originally
designed to aid.  While I don't necessarily agree with them, I think they
have a right to be a part of the conversation.
I remember when this issue was new and hot:  vandalism, name calling,
pickets, lists of businesses not to patronize.  I felt both sides went too
far.

On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 6:53 AM, Sunil Ramalingam
<sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:

Darrell,

I don't think anyone was run off V2020. People chose to leave, for whatever
reason. One didn't want to answer questions about things he had said here
and in the papers. But they weren't run off.

Sunil

  _____  

Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 00:17:15 -0800
From: keim153 at gmail.com
To: philosopher.joe at gmail.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com 

Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Crusaders vs. Infidels: Moscow's Muscular
Christianity

Joe:

I was going to leave you alone, as you requested.  But since you asked to
restart our correspondence...

Hey V2020 posters:

Lots of good stuff below if you like watching Joe and I banter back and
forth.

On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 11:04 PM, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
wrote:

In all honesty I'm having some trouble understanding your point, Darrell. I
fear you won't clarify it further but I'll ask some questions in the hope
that you really do have a point to make.

I'll try.  I thought I was fairly clear.  I'm not surprised you are having
trouble, we don't seem to communicate well with one another. 

You call the NSA post a "new advertising campaign" but complain about the
recent NSA criticism on Vision 2020 because it is "rehashing the old" so it
"doesn't seem to be of benefit." But how can it be rehashing the "old" if it
is criticism of the "new" ad campaign? The ad campaign was just posted, so
criticism of it is "new," right? (I've actually made this point already.)

Yeah, it's a new campaign.  But has the product they are attempting to sell
changed in any way?  No.  SSDD.  That's Same Stuff, Different Day.  They are
still ultra-conservative christians with some views that many consider odd
and/or offensive.  It is simply a new campaign selling the same ultra
conservative dogma as they have always sold.  I doubt if it will change
anyones position or deepen their understanding of them.

And, to clarify my position I did not complain about NSA criticism on V2020.
I complained about the amount of NSA criticism on v2020.  Too recap: I
initially complained about how often things, such as the church list Tom
posted, get linked back to CC.  When you pressed in a later note I
elaborated that unless we had new info or something changed, it seems like
most of the key players already know where they stand.  Thus, my belief that
further discussion doesn't seem to be of benefit.  That was the point where
you made at least 5 erroneous assertions about me.  Assertions which were
downright silly, considering how little you know about me.   Assertions,
which I'll remind you, you never deigned to address.  Even after I was kind
enough to enumerate them for you, and request clarification. I digress.
Sorry about that.

I have no problem with NSA criticism, or praise for that matter, on V2020.
I just wish the topic didn't have to come up with such frequency.  Moscow
has other things of interest to discuss.  What about the schools?  U of I?
Downtown?  URA?  City Council?  All of these together don't get half the
bandwidth CC does.  Here is our Mission Statement.  Perhaps it should be
posted periodically, so that people might read it.  It is one of the reasons
I initially signed on to V2020.

Vision 2020 Mission Statement Adopted March 1995

1.	To ensure that all parts of our community have an opportunity to
take part in visualizing and planning for the community's future. 
2.	To strengthen citizens' sense of community by promoting awareness,
ownership and investment in Moscow's future. 
3.	To foster cooperation among (and public involvement with) the
agencies and organizations that plan for and make decisions about the future
of Moscow and Latah County. 
4.	To raise awareness on the part of citizens and public officials
that: 

1.	uncontrolled and unplanned growth may have negative effects. 
2.	short-term decisions have long-term consequences.

5.	To inform ourselves about growth and development issues. 
6.	To have fun thinking critically and creatively.

 Does this much focus on one topic help us to achieve our mission?  I submit
that it does not.

Is your point that NSA and Christ Church can insult secularists and Muslims
and progressives and be free of public criticism, and use threatening
rhetoric, because they've done it before? Is the use of threatening rhetoric
in an NSA ad campaign "old news"?

No.  And if you honestly think the campaign is a legitimate physical
threat--i.e. they are going to go out and physically assault people, well I
think that is highly unlikely.  You must also think that drinking Bud Light
will get the Swedish Bikini Team after you, and that Exxon gas will put a
real tiger in your tank.  I kid.  I think they are using outrageous
advertising hyperbole to draw their target market--ultra conservative
christians. Not a turn-on for me, but I'll bet it works well for the people
they want.

Yet isn't the NSA complaint about secularists "old news" for this very
reason, just the same old stuff they've been saying? Did you contact Roy
Atwood and complain to him about reporting "old news" in his "new" ad
campaign? Or is there something special that the NSA and Christ Church
criticisms have going for them that exempts them from the "only new
criticisms" demand?

Do they constantly post on Vision 2020 about the same thing over and over
and over and over and over... ad infinitum?  No, in fact they were pretty
much run-off v2020 by folks that found them offensive (which would seem to
violate points 1 AND 2 of our Mission Statement). And, while I have spoken
with Roy Atwood and other key players at both CC and Logos on other topics,
why would I speak to any of them about something they post on their
webpages?  It is their space, they can write what they wish; whether you or
I like it or not.

Maybe the V is special since it is a public venue. Then in that case, you'll
be sure to make the same complaint when Crabtree or Roger or whomever
accuses liberals and progressives of being socialists, or in favor of gun
control, or any number of charges that they keep making over and over again.
Same "old news" and there is no place on the V for "old news" since it
"doesn't seem to be of benefit," right? 

If those issues came up with the same frequency as Christ Church, and no
real change bringing in new info to discuss, I might. 

Or did I still miss the "nuance" yet again?

Yeah, you probably did.  But that's okay with me. I'm happy to answer
questions for you.  Perhaps you'll answer some of the questions I've already
asked you sometime..

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 List services made available by First Step Internet, 
 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.   
               http://www.fsr.net                       
          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================

=======================================================
 List services made available by First Step Internet,
 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
              http://www.fsr.net
         mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================

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