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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>While I understand Matt & Sam’s opinions & have some sympathy, I agree with Reggie. Further, I’m enjoying the exchange & find it thought-provoking (although I personally with the dialogue could be a bit less . . . heated). I find myself thinking about points each has made while I’m doing mundane chores like shoveling snow, which I appreciate.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>For those who are tired of the exchange, the Delete key works well.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>JMHO,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Saundra Lund<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Moscow, ID<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>~ Edmund Burke<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2010 through life plus 70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the author.*****<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> vision2020-bounces@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Reggie Holmquist<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 01, 2010 10:17 PM<br><b>To:</b> Sam Scripter<br><b>Cc:</b> vision2020@moscow.com<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] Crusaders vs. Infidels: Moscow's Muscular Christianity<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>These two have just as much right to discourse on this channel as anyone else. If you don't like it, maybe don't read the messages, but please do not disparage them for their enthusiasm in discussing important issues of the day. Rather, that sort of thing should be encouraged. Remarks like yours make me wonder: Is it any wonder we have such an apathetic society?<br><br>With Much Respect,<br>Reggie<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 9:41 PM, Sam Scripter <<a href="mailto:MoscowSam@charter.net">MoscowSam@charter.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br>Matt Decker wrote: <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Darrell and Joe,<br> <br>You two have WAY too much time on your hands............<br> <br>Matt D<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><b><u><span style='font-size:13.5pt'>AMEN! [Re Matt, above]</span></u></b><span style='font-size:13.5pt'><br><br>Why don't you two take it off-line? Enough is enough. <br><span style='color:#888888'><br>Sam Scripter</span></span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>From: <a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a><br>Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 21:19:59 -0800<br>To: <a href="mailto:keim153@gmail.com" target="_blank">keim153@gmail.com</a><br>CC: <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Crusaders vs. Infidels: Moscow's Muscular Christianity<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Who, what, when? Back the claims up with specific examples.<br><br><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>On Dec 1, 2010, at 6:08 PM, Darrell Keim <<a href="mailto:keim153@gmail.com" target="_blank">keim153@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><pre style='white-space:pre-wrap'>We’ll have to agree to disagree on this, Sunil. Run off is a strong term, but it is the closest I can come to what seemed to be happening at the time. While some, such as D. Wilson almost seemed to enjoy stirring up V2020 and deserved to be questioned, others seemed to be gone after simply because they were CC members. Perhaps this didn’t specifically happen on the listserv—enough happened on both the listserv and in town that I can’t recall what happened where—CC members were uncomfortable enough that they are no longer a part of the community conversation that v2020 was originally designed to aid. While I don't necessarily agree with them, I think they have a right to be a part of the conversation.<span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style='white-space:pre-wrap'>I remember when this issue was new and hot: vandalism, name calling, pickets, lists of businesses not to patronize. I felt both sides went too far.<span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style='white-space:pre-wrap'> <span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style='white-space:pre-wrap'> <span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></pre><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 6:53 AM, Sunil Ramalingam <<a href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com" target="_blank">sunilramalingam@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Darrell,<br><br>I don't think anyone was run off V2020. People chose to leave, for whatever reason. One didn't want to answer questions about things he had said here and in the papers. But they weren't run off.<br><br>Sunil<o:p></o:p></p><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></div><p class=MsoNormal>Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 00:17:15 -0800<br>From: <a href="mailto:keim153@gmail.com" target="_blank">keim153@gmail.com</a><br>To: <a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a><br>CC: <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Crusaders vs. Infidels: Moscow's Muscular Christianity<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Joe:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I was going to leave you alone, as you requested. But since you asked to restart our correspondence...<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Hey V2020 posters:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Lots of good stuff below if you like watching Joe and I banter back and forth.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 11:04 PM, Joe Campbell <<a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>In all honesty I'm having some trouble understanding your point, Darrell. I fear you won't clarify it further but I'll ask some questions in the hope that you really do have a point to make.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I'll try. I thought I was fairly clear. I'm not surprised you are having trouble, we don't seem to communicate well with one another. <o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>You call the NSA post a "new advertising campaign" but complain about the recent NSA criticism on Vision 2020 because it is "rehashing the old" so it "doesn't seem to be of benefit." But how can it be rehashing the "old" if it is criticism of the "new" ad campaign? The ad campaign was just posted, so criticism of it is "new," right? (I've actually made this point already.)<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal>Yeah, it's a new campaign. But has the product they are attempting to sell changed in any way? No. SSDD. That's Same Stuff, Different Day. They are still ultra-conservative christians with some views that many consider odd and/or offensive. It is simply a new campaign selling the same ultra conservative dogma as they have always sold. I doubt if it will change anyones position or deepen their understanding of them.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>And, to clarify my position I did not complain about NSA criticism on V2020. I complained about the amount of NSA criticism on v2020. Too recap: I initially complained about how often things, such as the church list Tom posted, get linked back to CC. When you pressed in a later note I elaborated that unless we had new info or something changed, it seems like most of the key players already know where they stand. Thus, my belief that further discussion doesn't seem to be of benefit. That was the point where you made at least 5 erroneous assertions about me. Assertions which were downright silly, considering how little you know about me. Assertions, which I'll remind you, you never deigned to address. Even after I was kind enough to enumerate them for you, and request clarification. I digress. Sorry about that.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I have no problem with NSA criticism, or praise for that matter, on V2020. I just wish the topic didn't have to come up with such frequency. Moscow has other things of interest to discuss. What about the schools? U of I? Downtown? URA? City Council? All of these together don't get half the bandwidth CC does. Here is our Mission Statement. Perhaps it should be posted periodically, so that people might read it. It is one of the reasons I initially signed on to V2020.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div align=center><table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellpadding=0><tr><td valign=top style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellpadding=0><tr><td width=400 valign=top style='width:300.0pt;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><h3><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#344A74'>Vision 2020 Mission Statement Adopted March 1995<o:p></o:p></span></h3><ol start=1 type=1><li class=MsoNormal style='color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>To ensure that all parts of our community have an opportunity to take part in visualizing and planning for the community's future. <o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoNormal style='color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>To strengthen citizens' sense of community by promoting awareness, ownership and investment in Moscow's future. <o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoNormal style='color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>To foster cooperation among (and public involvement with) the agencies and organizations that plan for and make decisions about the future of Moscow and Latah County. <o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoNormal style='color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>To raise awareness on the part of citizens and public officials that: <o:p></o:p></span></li><ol start=1 type=1><li class=MsoNormal style='color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>uncontrolled and unplanned growth may have negative effects. <o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoNormal style='color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>short-term decisions have long-term consequences.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol></ol><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><ol start=5 type=1><li class=MsoNormal style='color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>To inform ourselves about growth and development issues. <o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoNormal style='color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>To have fun thinking critically and creatively.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol></td></tr></table></table></td></tr></table></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Does this much focus on one topic help us to achieve our mission? I submit that it does not.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Is your point that NSA and Christ Church can insult secularists and Muslims and progressives and be free of public criticism, and use threatening rhetoric, because they've done it before? Is the use of threatening rhetoric in an NSA ad campaign "old news"?<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal>No. And if you honestly think the campaign is a legitimate physical threat--i.e. they are going to go out and physically assault people, well I think that is highly unlikely. You must also think that drinking Bud Light will get the Swedish Bikini Team after you, and that Exxon gas will put a real tiger in your tank. I kid. I think they are using outrageous advertising hyperbole to draw their target market--ultra conservative christians. Not a turn-on for me, but I'll bet it works well for the people they want.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Yet isn't the NSA complaint about secularists "old news" for this very reason, just the same old stuff they've been saying? Did you contact Roy Atwood and complain to him about reporting "old news" in his "new" ad campaign? Or is there something special that the NSA and Christ Church criticisms have going for them that exempts them from the "only new criticisms" demand?<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal>Do they constantly post on Vision 2020 about the same thing over and over and over and over and over... ad infinitum? No, in fact they were pretty much run-off v2020 by folks that found them offensive (which would seem to violate points 1 AND 2 of our Mission Statement). And, while I have spoken with Roy Atwood and other key players at both CC and Logos on other topics, why would I speak to any of them about something they post on their webpages? It is their space, they can write what they wish; whether you or I like it or not.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Maybe the V is special since it is a public venue. Then in that case, you'll be sure to make the same complaint when Crabtree or Roger or whomever accuses liberals and progressives of being socialists, or in favor of gun control, or any number of charges that they keep making over and over again. Same "old news" and there is no place on the V for "old news" since it "doesn't seem to be of benefit," right? <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal>If those issues came up with the same frequency as Christ Church, and no real change bringing in new info to discuss, I might. <o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Or did I still miss the "nuance" yet again?<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal>Yeah, you probably did. But that's okay with me. I'm happy to answer questions for you. Perhaps you'll answer some of the questions I've already asked you sometime..<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><br>============<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><br>=======================================================<br> List services made available by First Step Internet,<br> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br> <a href="http://www.fsr.net/" target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net</a><br> mailto:<a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>=======================================================<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal>=======================================================<br>List services made available by First Step Internet, <br>serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br> <a href="http://www.fsr.net/" target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net</a> <br> <a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>=======================================================<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal><br>======================================================= List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <a href="http://www.fsr.net" target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net</a> <a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a> ======================================================= <o:p></o:p></p><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>=======================================================<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> List services made available by First Step Internet, <o:p></o:p></pre><pre> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <a href="http://www.fsr.net" target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net</a> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>=======================================================<o:p></o:p></pre></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><br>=======================================================<br> List services made available by First Step Internet,<br> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br> <a href="http://www.fsr.net" target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net</a><br> mailto:<a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>=======================================================<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><br><br clear=all><br>-- <br>There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. <br><br>Douglas Adams<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></body></html>