[Vision2020] vandals strike again
Paul Rumelhart
godshatter at yahoo.com
Fri Nov 6 17:33:49 PST 2009
There are extremes everywhere. I'm just saying that there is nothing
inherent in Atheism as a world view that makes it anti-religion. There
is no Atheist holy book exhorting followers to do secret Black Masses,
no commandments from spiritual beings they don't even believe exist, not
even a pamphlet telling other Atheists how to live their lives. You are
a "member" just by the fact that you don't believe in gods. They are a
classification of people in the same way that people whose favorite
color is orange is a valid classification of people.
Paul
lfalen wrote:
> Paul
> You would be correct in that most Atheists would agree to "Live and let live" . However there a lot of them that want to root out all vestige's of religion.This would be a violation of freedom of religion. If you google Ken Falen you will find a radical Atheist site. He was a cousin of dad's
> Roger
> -----Original message-----
> From: Paul Rumelhart godshatter at yahoo.com
> Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 08:25:54 -0800
> To: Donovan Arnold donovanjarnold2008 at yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] vandals strike again
>
>
>> There is no "goal of Atheists". They are defined simply by their lack
>> of belief in something. They have nothing in common other than that.
>> Most people around here don't believe in Zeus. With respect to Zeus,
>> almost everyone around here is an Atheist. That doesn't mean they have
>> a common goal to root out Zeus-worship.
>>
>> The billboard is a reaction to the very demonization you are displaying
>> here. They aren't trying to anger anyone, they are just trying to make
>> people aware that some people out there you might run into aren't
>> religious and seem to get along fine without religion. They make no
>> mention of what religious people should do. They are just hoping that
>> people will remember that not everyone believes as the majority does,
>> and stop trying to force their religious views on them.
>>
>> As for atheists advocating for the trashing of the Earth, Atheists don't
>> believe there is a better world waiting for them after they are dead.
>> That means that this world is more important to them as a consequence.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> Donovan Arnold wrote:
>>
>>> Selina,
>>>
>>> Just because the Supreme Court of the United States says it is
>>> morally correct doesn't make it anymore so. It also says the death
>>> penalty and abortions are correct. It also suppressed the rights of
>>> Blacks, Woman, and now Gays and Lesbians.
>>>
>>> To say that it doesn't disturb people, is factually incorrect, as
>>> people are destroying the signs. For every one person that vandalizes
>>> a sign, there has to be a 1000 more that wish it so.
>>>
>>> My argument has more to do with littering the highway with big trashy
>>> billboards. Which the Earth itself rejects.
>>>
>>> If the goal of Atheist are to anger the general public while trashing
>>> the Earth, I think they have achieved their goal.
>>>
>>> Donovan Arnold
>>>
>>> --- On *Fri, 11/6/09, Selina Davis /<selinadavis at hotmail.com>/* wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Selina Davis <selinadavis at hotmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] vandals strike again
>>> To: "Vision 2020 List" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>> Date: Friday, November 6, 2009, 1:13 AM
>>>
>>> Donovan,
>>>
>>> US Supreme Court precedent dealing with the First Amendment
>>> would tend to differ with your conclusion. The message conveyed
>>> by the sign simply does not fall within any of the categories of
>>> speech (true threat, incitement, hate speech, defamation,
>>> commercial speech, purely prurient obscenity, or speech that
>>> invades the subject's privacy) that may be regulated, prohibited,
>>> or punished based on content.
>>>
>>> After two and a half years of parenting a pre-schooler who's now
>>> in first grade, I'd say that dealing with the occasional awkward
>>> conversation seems to come with the territory. I doubt that any
>>> literate child would be troubled, let alone traumatized, by that
>>> sign, particularly if his or her parent could provide a calm and
>>> rational response when the child asks, "What does that mean,
>>> anyway?" I can also honestly say that my belief in God was not
>>> shaken in third grade, when my then-best friend shared that she
>>> and her mother were atheists. I just found it curious. For what
>>> it's worth.
>>>
>>> - Selina
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 16:22:50 -0800
>>> From: donovanjarnold2008 at yahoo.com
>>> To: bear at moscow.com
>>> CC: vision2020 at secure.fsr.com
>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] vandals strike again
>>>
>>> Wayne, that is remarkably simple.
>>>
>>> Communities should get to decide what is appropriate content for
>>> the general public to have unwillingly thrust in their face and
>>> the eyes of their children and where it is appropriate.
>>>
>>> Donovan Arnold
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- On *Thu, 11/5/09, Wayne Price /<bear at moscow.com>/* wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Wayne Price <bear at moscow.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] vandals strike again
>>> To: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2008 at yahoo.com>
>>> Cc: "<vision2020 at secure.fsr.com>" <vision2020 at secure.fsr.com>
>>> Date: Thursday, November 5, 2009, 11:08 PM
>>>
>>> Donovan,
>>>
>>> The problem is WHO gets to decide what is an appropriate
>>> context?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Nov 5, 2009, at 3:04 PM, Donovan Arnold wrote:
>>>
>>> That's funny. I think all roadside billboards should be
>>> taken down, they make American Roadways ugly and cause
>>> accidents. Or at least it should be legal to have big
>>> bushy mustaches drawn on their faces, unless it is
>>> Geraldo, then you would have to paint over the mustache. :
>>> V| D
>>>
>>> I don't think billboards announcing that Santa isn't real,
>>> or how to use a condom is appropriate either, because
>>> children can read those signs, and they do, and a parent
>>> may wish to censor what ads and information their children
>>> receive.
>>>
>>> Case and point; A child is coming home from their
>>> Grandmother's funeral or a school shooting funeral. They
>>> tell the child grandmother or friend are with God. Then
>>> they read a sign saying, there is no God.
>>>
>>> I am for free speech, but always in an appropriate context.
>>>
>>> This is ironic too, maybe the Humanists can pray their
>>> signs won't be vandalized. Or find a more appropriate way
>>> of expressing their point of view.
>>>
>>> Donovan Arnold
>>>
>>>
>>> --- On *Thu, 11/5/09, Wayne Price /<bear at moscow.com
>>> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bear@moscow.com>>/*
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Wayne Price <bear at moscow.com
>>> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bear@moscow.com>>
>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] vandals strike again
>>> To: "Joe Campbell" <philosopher.joe at gmail.com
>>> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>>
>>> Cc: "<vision2020 at secure.fsr.com
>>> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@secure.fsr.com>>"
>>> <vision2020 at secure.fsr.com
>>> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@secure.fsr.com>>
>>> Date: Thursday, November 5, 2009, 3:58 PM
>>>
>>> Once the Humanists get the sign redone, and I really
>>> hope they do, would it be that hard to REMOVE the
>>> ladder leading up to the platform?
>>> Carrying a can of paint at night is one thing, but
>>> paint and a ladder? Perhaps the creeps could be
>>> caught that way.
>>> Or, perhaps a camera, so the creeps could be
>>> identified and prosecuted?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Nov 5, 2009, at 7:47 AM, Joe Campbell wrote:
>>>
>>> This is against free speech, against property
>>> rights, and against religious freedom.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Nov 4, 2009, at 2:38 PM, keely emerinemix
>>> <kjajmix1 at msn.com
>>> <http://us..mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kjajmix1@msn.com>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I wish whoever is doing this would knock it
>>> off. If the most courageous stand you can
>>> make for your faith in God is to deface a
>>> billboard, you've really got some spiritual
>>> inventory to examine.
>>>
>>> Keely
>>> www.keely-prevailingwinds.com
>>> <http://www.keely-prevailingwinds.com/>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> From: london at moscow.com
>>> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=london@moscow.com>
>>> To: vision2020 at secure.fsr.com
>>> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo..com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@secure.fsr.com>
>>> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 12:13:55 -0800
>>> Subject: [Vision2020] vandals strike again
>>>
>>> Humanist Billboard Vandalized in Moscow,
>>> Idaho…Again
>>>
>>> (Washington, D.C, November 4, 2009) An
>>> individual or individuals have
>>> defaced a billboard in Moscow, Idaho… again.
>>> The billboard originally
>>> read "Millions are good without God" but was
>>> partially obscured with
>>> blue paint to now read “Millions are good with
>>> God”. It's the second
>>> time the American Humanist Association
>>> (AHA)-sponsored billboard has
>>> been vandalized in two weeks. In the first
>>> instance the word "without"
>>> was completely blacked out, after which the
>>> AHA quickly replaced the
>>> billboard. The advertisement, which was
>>> originally placed
>>> mid-September, is part of an American Humanist
>>> Association advertising
>>> campaign to spread awareness about being good
>>> without God. It's the
>>> third billboard advertisement the organization
>>> has displayed in the
>>> Moscow area and similar ads have been put up
>>> around the country.
>>>
>>> A picture of the vandalized billboard can be
>>> found here:
>>> http://www.americanhumanist.org/system/storage/29/1225/Picture_002.jpg.
>>> The billboard can be found on Highway 95, just
>>> south of Moscow near
>>> the Sweet Avenue cross street, facing
>>> northbound traffic.
>>>
>>> "The irony here is worth noting," said David
>>> Niose, president of the
>>> American Humanist Association. "Some
>>> individuals are committing
>>> criminal acts while apparently claiming that
>>> their religious view of
>>> the world leads to good behavior. It's not a
>>> very convincing argument
>>> on their part."
>>>
>>> "This is not just vandalism, it is religiously
>>> motivated vandalism
>>> which attempts to silence a minority
>>> viewpoint," added Niose.
>>> "Everyone, not just humanists, should be
>>> concerned about such acts."
>>>
>>> The Moscow Police Department notified the AHA
>>> this morning. They
>>> believe the ad defaced between 1 and 3 am. The
>>> AHA has alerted the
>>> billboard company who leased the space, Lamar
>>> Outdoor, who said they
>>> will start leaving the lights on round the
>>> clock. The AHA will be
>>> replacing the billboard but hasn't yet decided
>>> whether to go with the
>>> same design.
>>>
>>> "I’m disturbed that this happened again," said
>>> Roy Speckhardt,
>>> executive director of the American Humanist
>>> Association. "Two
>>> consecutive crimes in a town where the last
>>> incidence of billboard
>>> vandalism was years ago makes it obvious that
>>> humanists and our
>>> message are being targeted.”
>>>
>>> The American Humanist Association
>>> (www.americanhumanist.org
>>> <http://www.americanhumanist.org/>) advocates
>>> for the rights and viewpoints of humanists.
>>> Founded in 1941 and
>>> headquartered in Washington, D.C., its work is
>>> extended through more
>>> than 100 local chapters and affiliates across
>>> the United States.
>>>
>>> Humanism is the idea that you can be good
>>> without a belief in God.
>>>
>>> #
>>>
>>> Contact:
>>> Karen Frantz
>>> 202-238-9088
>>> cell: 703-725-4112
>>> kfrantz at americanhumanist.org
>>> <http://us.mc447.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kfrantz@americanhumanist.org>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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