[Vision2020] Say What?
bear at moscow.com
bear at moscow.com
Tue Mar 31 12:24:00 PDT 2009
A mind is a terrible thing to lose..........
Where did you get the false notion that the Geneva Conventions ONLY apply to soldiers?
For Example:
The Fourth Geneva Convention (or GCIV) relates to the protection of civilians during times
of
war "in the hands" of an enemy and under any military occupation by a foreign power. This
should not be confused with the better known Third Geneva Convention, which deals with the
treatment of prisoners of war. The convention was published on August 12, 1949, at the end
of
a conference held in Geneva from April 21 to August 12, 1949. The convention entered into
force on October 21, 1950.
As of 27 June 2006, when Nauru adopted the convention, it has been ratified by 194
countries.
Article 4 defines who is a Protected person: Persons protected by the Convention are those
who, at a given moment and in any manner whatsoever, find themselves, in case of a
conflict or
occupation, in the hands of a Party to the conflict or Occupying Power of which they are
not
nationals.
OR are you going to claim that since we never called ourselves an "occupation force", we
weren't one?
And remember, one man's terrorist is another mans freedom fighter!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Hanni, Geneva Convention applies to soldiers. Terrorists are not soldiers,
> are they?
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Donovan
>
> --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Say What?
> To: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>, "Sunil Ramalingam"
<su> nilramalingam at hotmail.com>, "vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 10:58 AM
>
>
> How's this for a specific, Arnold?
>
> -----------------------------------------
>
> THE LAW.
>
> ----------
>
> Article 3 of the Geneva Convention Accords (adopted on August 12, 1949) at:
>
> http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm
>
> "Article 3
>
> In the case of armed conflict not of an international character
occurring>
> in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each party to
the>
> conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following
provisions:>
>
> 1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members
of>
> armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de
combat>
> by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all
> circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction
founded>
> on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other
> similar criteria.
>
> To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any
time>
> and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:
>
> (a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds,
> mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
>
> (b) Taking of hostages;
>
> (c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and
> degrading treatment;
>
> (d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without
> previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording
> all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by
> civilized peoples."
>
> -----------------------------------------
>
> THE VIOLATION.
>
> --------------
>
> US acknowledges torture at Guantanamo; in Iraq, Afghanistan - UN
>
> http://www.forbes.com/feeds/afx/2005/06/24/afx2110388.html
>
> -----------------------------------------
>
> Is that sufficient?
>
> Tom Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
>
>
> > Sunil,
> >
> > You aren't pointing to any specifics, so it is hard to say.
> >
> > I know that the Constitution allows for the suspension of Habeas
Corpus>
> in
> > times of war. I know you think this is a violation of international
la> w
> > and the Geneva Convention.
> >
> > I believe, that the right to preserve the Union outweighs any
> international> law, including the dropping of nuclear bombs on
millions>
> of innocent
> peopl> e and the denial of terrorists their basic human rights,
including>
> the
> righ> t to live or have a fair trial.
> >
> > Further, I don't see the United States government as having the right to
> co> ncede powers it doesn't have. The people of the United States never
> consent> ed to international law. So it isn't valid unless if also
happens>
> to also
> b> e federal or state law.
> >
> > Treaties are simply agreements between to two or more parties. I don't
> cons> ider them law abiding. They are simply if and then statements,
such>
> as if
> y> ou give a $10 Billion and shut down your ship production I will not bomb
> yo> u. If you don't I will continue, or if you allow us to ship in 100
> million
> > auto parts, we will allow you to ship in 20 million computer parts if you
> d> on't, we won't.
> >
> > You must have the consent of the governed, international law doesn't.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Donovan
> >
> > --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Say What?
> > To:
> > Cc: "vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 8:53 AM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > #yiv1929964352 .hmmessage P
> > {
> > margin:0px;padding:0px;}
> > #yiv1929964352 {
> > font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}
> >
> > Which treaties are you talking about?
> >
> > It seems to me you can't point at anything to support your position.
> You> 're simply saying 'Might makes right.'
> >
> > Sunil
> >
> >
> >
> > Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 07:11:50 -0700
> > From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Say What?
> > To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
> > CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sunil,
> >
> > If a treaty violates the Constitution, it isn't a valid treaty is it?
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Donovan
> >
> > --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Say What?
> > To:
> > Cc: "vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 6:51 AM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > #yiv1929964352 .ExternalClass #EC_yiv657394139 .EC_hmmessage P
> > {padding:0px;}
> > #yiv1929964352 .ExternalClass #EC_yiv657394139
> > {font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}
> >
> > Donovan,
> >
> > Is it correct that you cannot cite a legal basis for your position
that>
> we
> > are allowed to violate international law? So far you've offered
> examples> of instances where we have apparently done so, but have not
> offered a
> reas> on or rationale that makes such actions legal.
> >
> > Is it your position that it is legal for us to do so? If so, how?
> >
> > I'm talking here of violations of treaties that we have adopted, and
> theref> ore are US laws, under our constitution.
> >
> > Sunil
> >
> > -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
> >
> >
> >
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> >
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> >
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>
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>
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>
> Seeya
> there.
>
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