[Vision2020] Indoor Air Quality
TIM RIGSBY
tim.rigsby at hotmail.com
Wed Jul 22 13:28:11 PDT 2009
Riddle me this...
Why has Bucer's been allowed to break Idaho Law since the 2004 passage of the Idaho Clean Indoor Air Act?
They are not a bar, they are a restaurant by state definition.
From: lockshop at pull.twcbc.com
To: philosopher.joe at gmail.com
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 12:52:44 -0700
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com; garrettmc at verizon.net
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Indoor Air Quality
Wrong on both counts.
I wasn't illegal before the councils meddling, as
the law always exempted bars and private clubs. (the State giving a nod to the
notion of private property and the acts of volition)
Also I believe that one should be able to purchase
property that had formerly been a toxic waste site as long as the fact has been
disclosed.
My example stands as in both cases the secondhand
smoke and the jet noise were in place first and had to be sought out by those
who would complain about it. In both cases the problem would not exist if the
would be whiners would simply go somewhere else more to their liking rather then
to search out a situation they found unpleasant and demand their whims be
accomadated.
g
----- Original Message -----
From:
Joe
Campbell
To: the lockshop
Cc: g. crabtree ; <vision2020 at moscow.com> ; Garrett
Clevenger
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 11:47
AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Indoor Air
Quality
The
debate is about what should or should not be a law, not about what is law. If
what is the law matters, then you loose since now it is illegal to smoke in
doors. Obviously this does not matter much when it comes to the question of
whether it should or shouldn't be illegal. That is the debate.
I
take it that you think it should be illegal to sell folks houses built on a
toxic waste dump even if they wanted to buy the land of their own free will.
Why, given your last argument? That is the question.
Your example is flawed since annoyance is not physical harm. Secondhand
smoke causes physical harm to others; airport noise does
not.
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 22, 2009, at 1:52 PM, "the lockshop" <lockshop at pull.twcbc.com>
wrote:
Your "better example" would have some
validity were smoking and the generation of second hand smoke illegal
or if the fact it were being generated was being concealed from the patrons
or the employees.
When it comes to nonsmoking employees and
potential customers, a better "better example" would be people who build
homes next to an airport and then whine to authorities about the noise.
g
----- Original Message -----
From:
Joe Campbell
To: g. crabtree
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com ; Garrett
Clevenger
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 6:50
AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Indoor Air
Quality
But this would be true for any danger. If this were a sound argument,
it would equally support a company's "right" to toxic waste!
A better example: why can't people build on toxic waste dumps and
sell the houses for super cheap? After all, if folks buy the houses, it is
their choice? We could just say "You didn't have to buy the house!"
Problem solved!
Not that I have a horse in this race -- it seems like a tricky issue
and I feel for the smokers among us. But it does seem as much of a
workers' rights issue as anything else. It seems to be well within the
state's rights to protect workers, whether they want the protection or
not.
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 22, 2009, at 9:23 AM, "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
wrote:
Why do you repeatedly use the phrase "have
to breathe" when referring to employees and patrons? Neither of these
groups "have to do any such thing. They can make a rational adult choice
and not frequent the establishment.
g
----- Original Message -----
From:
Garrett Clevenger
To: Darrell Keim
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009
10:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Indoor
Air Quality
The
government does try to regulate behavior on private property. We're
talking about businesses open to the public, though. They can't even
sell alcohol without a permit, and alcohol is legal. Why should they
be allowed to knowingly endanger public health with second hand smoke,
when there are ways to prevent that?
If a smoker wants to smoke a carcinogenic and addictive
substance, that's their right, but that doesn't give them the right to
pollute the air others have to breath. It seems reasonable to try to
limit the exposure to second hand smoke, and if businesses won't do
it, then apparently the city feels the need to ban it completely.
Since they like to pass laws without proper consideration, I'm not
surprised. Could we have gotten a better written law? Yes.
Second hand smoke should be a regulated hazardous substance. You
know they use nicotine bombs in greenhouses to kill the pests? Granted
that's concentrated, but cigarettes also contain numerous other
chemicals, from pesticides to preservatives, making that smoke even
more toxic. Not only is it bad for people to breath, it destroys
whatever may be in the room. Replacing a pair of speakers is not
cheap, but things will wear out quicker in a smokey bar than a
non-smokey one.
Obviously drinking too much alcohol can be even worse. Bars will
cut overly drunk people off to try to prevent accidents (and not be
liable) People who go to a bar can choose not to drink. I'm not
advocating prohibition and I'm not advocating banning smoking. I like
beer too much and people will smoke anyway. But while being in a room
full of drunk people may be annoying, if there's smoke, it's even
worse as that smoke is unavoidable and extremely irritating to some
people. Those smokers took that choice away. Their only real choice is
to leave, but that still doesn't address the overall problems caused
by second hand smoke.
Maybe you know more about the clean air standards, but I imagine
they apply to places where people go. Do businesses have the right to
have any contaminants that might be present? That would seem like a
violation of some type of law, but maybe you are saying there is a
free-for-all, buyer-beware. If indoor air quality is a concern for the
government in general, it seems like second-hand smoke should be on
that list.
Like I said before, I'm not a supporter of the law that was
passed. They should have at least given it three votes to get more
public feedback. But I'm not as against this law as the noise
ordinance, which affects our first amendment right. Where were you
when the city passed that? I'll admit I may not be super consistent,
but I will definitely stand up for protection of free speech rights
over the right of a business to pollute the air its employees and
patrons have to breath.
Bars can have better ventilation systems and reduce areas where
people can smoke, and Les Schwab can put their tires in a room where
people aren't working all day. Walmart should be ventilating their air
better, as a room that size full of brand new plastics and
questionable Chinese products should be suspicious to people who are
aware that there are some nasty chemicals that build up indoors that
you should not be breathing on a regular basis.
Obviously not all businesses will "do whatever" but enough will
do things they shouldn't to make a buck. To not regulate businesses,
and expect them to be angels, seems naive. Protecting people's health
will save society money in the long run, and reduce the chances of
people suffering disease from the indoor air they breath.
Set indoor air quality standards, and let businesses try to meet
them without taking away what may be a vital part of their
livelihood.
Garrett Clevenger
From: Darrell Keim
<keim153 at gmail.com>
To: Garrett Clevenger <garrettmc at verizon.net>
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009
7:01:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
Indoor Air Quality
On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 6:12 PM,
Garrett Clevenger<garrettmc at verizon.net>
wrote:
> My point is government regulates nuisances.
You bet
it regulates nuisances. Public nuisances, for the most
part.
I am against the gov't coming onto private property and
regulating
against behavior that is not generally deemed
illegal. If the gov't
can regulate behavior on your neighbors
property, they will soon be
doing the same to you.
Like it
or not, smoking is not a criminal behavior.
>Second hand
smoke is a nuisance.
> It is noxious. It's poison. Businesses
should not be allowed to expose
> people to it, and other
noxious compounds, unreasonably.
Obviously our definition of
unreasonable behavior is different. The
businesses do not
force you to enter and breathe the smoke anymore
then they force
you to drink. You make the choice to go into the
smoke filled
environment. Drinking also has very negative
secondary
consequences (behavior, driving, birth defects). By
your logic this
should also be banned. Wait. We tried
that. Didn't work very well.
> It's an epic struggle
trying to regulate businesses. They want the right to
> do
whatever.
Businesses don't want the right to do whatever.
They want to be able
to make a profit. There is a big
difference. If a behavior is
hurting business, they will
generally refrain from it.
> The people they affect want
protection. Regulating smoking is
> no different than regulating
any other crap a business produces as a
> by-product of its
profit.
Agreed. Lets take filling stations as an
example. We all agree it is
bad to pollute our environment
with gas spills. Thus they are
regulated so that certain
precautions and remediations are in place.
This law isn't
regulating smoking in the business. A regulating law
would
require air cleaners or the like. This is forbidding it.
Big
difference.
> Of course I have a right to not
patronize these businesses. I also have the
> right to expect
government to be consistent.
If you expect consistency from the
government you are in for a long
wait. We can work towards
it, but our laws are to complex to ever
achieve it.
> If
it can regulate what you see
> (boobies) and what you hear
(that's up to a cop) it should regulate what you
>
breath.
Actually our Gov't does have clean air standards.
They apply to
outdoors. I.E. the public. Not to places
a person chooses to go.
>This world would become an ashtray
quicker than it would otherwise.
> Free speech trumps the right
of smokers. If we can have a draconian noise
> ordinance, we can
have a smoking ban.
And you talk about needing consistency?
Weren't you rather
passionately against the noise ordinance?
The
fact that we already have bad laws on the books does not mean
we
need more.
> But my initial point was it's not about
smoke, its about indoor air quality
> in general, and I would
rather see those regulations than a smoking ban. I
> agree that,
once again, the council didn't put time in to ensuring that
this
> works for more people than it may now.
> Take a
deeeeep breath...
Actually I'd rather not take a deep breath in a
number of the
establishments I've been defending. I may be
against the ban, but
that doesn't mean I like second hand
smoke.
>
> Garrett Clevenger
>
>
________________________________
> From: Darrell Keim
<keim153 at gmail.com>
>
To: Garrett Clevenger <garrettmc at verizon.net>
>
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
>
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:49:19 PM
> Subject: Re:
[Vision2020] Indoor Air Quality
>
>
Garrett:
>
> Your points below are so illogical it is
almost funny. Allow me to
> address them.
>
>
On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 4:58 PM, Garrett Clevenger<garrettmc at verizon.net>
>
wrote:
>> Yeah, and you wouldn't have to patronize a nude
bar, but that's illegal
>> too.
> That's
illogical: Smoking isn't illegal.
>> Businesses are
regulated precisely because some people will do anything
to
>> make money.
> That's logical and
true.
>> Do you think it should just be a free-for-all, with
no
>> regulations what-so-ever?
> That's
illogical. This isn't a zero-sum game. We can and do
have
> proper regulation of businesses. I think people
should be able to
> offer things that are generally considered
legal (such as smoking) in
> their own businesses.
>> I
don't think business owners have a right to subject their employees
and
>> patrons to known contaminants, just like they
shouldn't be able to dump
>> their crap out the back door for
others to deal with.
> That's illogical: Illegal dumping
and known contaminants are two
> separate issues. One
happens on ones own private property, the other
> in a public
thoroughfare.
> It is also illogical because, of course,
businesses don't have a right
> to subject people to noxious
substances. That would imply people had
> no choice but to
subject themselves to those substances. They do.
> They
have a choice of where to work and what to
patronize.
>>
>> Garrett
Clevenger
>>
>>
________________________________
>> From: Darrell Keim
<keim153 at gmail.com>
>>
To: Garrett Clevenger <garrettmc at verizon.net>
>>
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 4:45:08 PM
>>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Indoor Air
Quality
>>
>> Since you don't HAVE to patronize it,
it seems to me that the business
>> owners right to operate
their establishment as they see fit trumps all
>> other
rights.
>>
>> As I've said before, Welcome to
Moscow. Home of Big
Mother.
>>
>>
>>>It seems my right to
breath clean air trumps another's right to
>>> pollute it,
just like my right to quiet trumps the right of the band
next
>>> door to play loud all night
long...
>>>
>>>
>>> Garrett
Clevenger
>>>
>>>
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