[Vision2020] DARE to speak the truth
Donovan Arnold
donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
Wed Feb 25 18:04:51 PST 2009
I think DARE does help, it just doesn't help all kids. I think you have to try lots of things out because kids are all different and will respond differently to different methods.
I would not put everything into DARE. I would have several programs. No matter you do though, there will always be kids that end up on drugs.
Best Regards,
Donovan
--- On Tue, 2/24/09, Bill London <london at moscow.com> wrote:
From: Bill London <london at moscow.com>
Subject: [Vision2020] DARE to speak the truth
To: "lfalen" <lfalen at turbonet.com>, "Warren Hayman" <whayman at roadrunner.com>, "Sue Hovey" <suehovey at moscow.com>, donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com, vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Tuesday, February 24, 2009, 1:46 PM
DARE, like abstinence-only sex education, sounds great to older,
conservative voters.....but the real question is ... do these programs work?
Do young people respond to these messages and alter their behavior?
The answer now, after years of effort and years of study, is nope.
BL
----- Original Message -----
From: "lfalen" <lfalen at turbonet.com>
To: "Warren Hayman" <whayman at roadrunner.com>; "Sue
Hovey"
<suehovey at moscow.com>; <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>;
<vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 1:03 PM
Subject: [Vision2020] [Spam 5.59] Re: Subject change to "Was it Necessary
toUse theAtomicBombs on Japan?" Former title Presidential Rankings
> D.A.R.E is a good program. The idea behind it is to say no to a dare.
> Roger
> -----Original message-----
> From: "Warren Hayman" whayman at roadrunner.com
> Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 19:13:36 -0800
> To: "lfalen" lfalen at turbonet.com, "Sue Hovey"
suehovey at moscow.com,
> donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com, vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: [Spam 5.59] Re: [Vision2020] Subject change to "Was it
Necessary
> to Use theAtomicBombs on Japan?" Former title Presidential Rankings
>
>> So we can get rid of the DARE program in the school district? Great
idea!
>>
>> Warren Hayman
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "lfalen" <lfalen at turbonet.com>
>> To: "Sue Hovey" <suehovey at moscow.com>;
<donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>;
>> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 12:34 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Subject change to "Was it Necessary to
Use
>> theAtomicBombs on Japan?" Former title Presidential Rankings
>>
>>
>> > Sue
>> > The mentality behind issuing a dare is harmful, just as is the
>> > mentality
>> > of casting shame on being an snitch, or stoolie. A dare is a
challenge
>> > to
>> > some ones bravery, like you are a coward if you don't accept.
This can
>> > get
>> > kids in a lot of trouble and should be something teachers are
fighting
>> > against. In reality rejecting a dare takes more courage than
accepting
>> > one.
>> > Roger
>> > -----Original message-----
>> > From: "Sue Hovey" suehovey at moscow.com
>> > Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 01:03:25 -0800
>> > To: "lfalen" lfalen at turbonet.com,
donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com,
>> > vision2020 at moscow.com
>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Subject change to "Was it
Necessary to Use
>> > the
>> > AtomicBombs on Japan?" Former title Presidential Rankings
>> >
>> >> I sent this to Donovan. I didn't dare you to do
anything....I don't
>> >> care
>> >> whether you read Hershey's book or not...And why, pray
tell, is it
>> >> shameful
>> >> for me to issue a dare to him? Are your standards for
teachers
>> >> somewhat
>> >> more skewed than for other such ordinary folk? He didn't
respond
>> >> anyway,
>> >> so
>> >> we'll never know whether he decided to read it. And the
word is
>> >> bearing.....
>> >>
>> >> Sue H.
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "lfalen" <lfalen at turbonet.com>
>> >> To: "Sue Hovey" <suehovey at moscow.com>;
<donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>;
>> >> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> >> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 9:50 AM
>> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Subject change to "Was it
Necessary to Use
>> >> the
>> >> AtomicBombs on Japan?" Former title Presidential
Rankings
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Shame on you Sue as a teacher for issuing a dare. I may
or may not
>> >> > read
>> >> > Hershey's book. A dare would have absolutely no
baring on it.
>> >> > Roger
>> >> > -----Original message-----
>> >> > From: "Sue Hovey" suehovey at moscow.com
>> >> > Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 02:12:03 -0800
>> >> > To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com, vision2020 at moscow.com
>> >> > Subject: [Vision2020] Subject change to "Was it
Necessary to Use the
>> >> > AtomicBombs on Japan?" Former title Presidential
Rankings
>> >> >
>> >> >> 1. I agree, it did end the war quickly--in a matter
of days.
>> >> >> 2. And if the bombs hadn't been dropped, how
much less intact
>> >> >> would
>> >> >> have
>> >> >> Japan been on Sep 1, 1945?
>> >> >> 3. It did that. And we had committed to the goal of
unconditional
>> >> >> surrender.
>> >> >> 4. No, no, no....it did not.
>> >> >> 5. But they didn't back out of Germany....And
they were already
>> >> >> developing nuclear weapons.
>> >> >> 6. Well you got me there & I was living in
Texas then, but Bentson
>> >> >> wasn't the U.S. Senator from Texas until quite a
bit later, so I
>> >> >> really
>> >> >> don't believe this happened. During the Korean
war I think our
>> >> >> senators
>> >> >> were LBJ and Tom Connally.
>> >> >> 7. Maybe so, maybe not.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Go ahead and read Hershey's book. I double dare
you. You may not
>> >> >> be
>> >> >> convinced, but you will have another perspective to
chew on.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Sue H.
>> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> From: Donovan Arnold
>> >> >> To: vision2020 at moscow.com ; Sue Hovey
>> >> >> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 8:45 PM
>> >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Presidential Rankings
(2009)
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Sue,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> It was necessary to drop the bomb for
several reasons.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 1) It brought a quick end to the war
>> >> >> 2) It kept the rest of Japan intact
>> >> >> 3) It gave us an unconditional surrender,
which is what the
>> >> >> Allies swore to do
>> >> >> 4) It limited Casualties on both sides of
the war
>> >> >> 5) It showed Russia that we have the bomb,
and will use it,
>> >> >> so
>> >> >> back out of Germany and Western Europe.
>> >> >> 6) The aftermath of the A-Bomb, its horrible
impact on
>> >> >> people,
>> >> >> helped Senator Benston-D Texas, convince the Senate
to block
>> >> >> General
>> >> >> MacArthur's attempts to end the Korean War by
dropping 50 A-Bombs
>> >> >> on
>> >> >> China.
>> >> >> 7) It has prevented anyone from using a
nuclear bomb again
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So, I have read the arguments. I don't
think your friend,
>> >> >> Hershey, had any greater insight than Truman or his
advisers.
>> >> >> Hershey
>> >> >> was
>> >> >> just 31, Truman was President, he had more
information and a bigger
>> >> >> picture of the issues at the time.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The consequences of not dropping the bomb
would have been
>> >> >> worse.
>> >> >> Hard to believe, but it would have been.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Best Regards,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Donovan
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --- On Thu, 2/19/09, Sue Hovey
<suehovey at moscow.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> From: Sue Hovey
<suehovey at moscow.com>
>> >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Presidential
Rankings (2009)
>> >> >> To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com,
vision2020 at moscow.com
>> >> >> Date: Thursday, February 19, 2009, 8:10 PM
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Donovan,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> For an interesting and opposing view, you
might take a
>> >> >> look
>> >> >> at
>> >> >> John Hershey's Hiroshima, the Aftermath,
published in the 1980s.
>> >> >> It's
>> >> >> one thing to have had to make that call, as Truman
did, for a
>> >> >> nation
>> >> >> weary of war, and quite another to quote as fact
today the idea
>> >> >> that
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> dropping of the atom bombs was necessary to save a
million lives.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Sue H.
>> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> From: Donovan Arnold
>> >> >> To: vision2020 at moscow.com ; Kenneth
Marcy
>> >> >> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 4:27
PM
>> >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Presidential
Rankings (2009)
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> People that were against the
dropping of the atom
>> >> >> bombs
>> >> >> on Japan in WWII were obviously ignorant of the
larger number of
>> >> >> causalities it would have cost both Japan and the US
in its place,
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> were insensitive to massive suffering and loss of
life that the US
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> others had already endured.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Truman only had two options. 1) To
kill one
>> >> >> million
>> >> >> more people, both Japanese and Americans, or 2) Kill
100,000
>> >> >> Japanese
>> >> >> that started the war and end it.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> To me, the choice is obvious. I am
sure Truman
>> >> >> would
>> >> >> have dropped 12 billion roses instead if it ended
the war, but it
>> >> >> wouldn't, so he did what had to do to end the
war. And dropping the
>> >> >> bomb
>> >> >> barely did end the war as Japan still didn't
want to surrender
>> >> >> initially
>> >> >> after that.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Best Regards.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Donovan
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --- On Thu, 2/19/09, Kenneth Marcy
>> >> >> <kmmos1 at verizon.net>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> From: Kenneth Marcy
<kmmos1 at verizon.net>
>> >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
Presidential Rankings
>> >> >> (2009)
>> >> >> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>> >> >> Date: Thursday, February 19,
2009, 12:45 PM
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Wednesday 18 February 2009 14:03:26 Kai Eiselein
wrote:> Sooooo,
>> >> >> would
>> >> >> this apply to those who condemn the use of nuclear
bombs on>
>> >> >> Japan?Yes. I
>> >> >> think that the Allies, and the Americans
specifically, were
>> >> >> war-weary
>> >> >> from large social and industrial reorganizations to
support a war
>> >> >> effort
>> >> >> then beyond all those previous. The prospect of any
necessity of
>> >> >> taking a
>> >> >> land war from the Allies into Asia implied such huge
additional
>> >> >> losses
>> >> >> that any way to end the Nipponese war, and prevent
its spread more
>> >> >> generally to Asia, was seen as a useful effort.More
so than any
>> >> >> subsequent major conflict, World War II was seen as
a just war; the
>> >> >> Allied cause was worth winning for good reasons, and
all efforts
>> >> >> toward
>> >> >> that end were justified.Yes, the atomic destruction
was horrific,
>> >> >> no
>> >> >> doubt about it, and on sight of the test blast, the
>> >> >> decision makers all knew it. Oppenheimer said in
New Mexico "I am
>> >> >> become
>> >> >> death." And the chain of command, from Groves
upto Marshall and
>> >> >> then
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> Truman, presumably had some idea of the much larger
magnitude of
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> atom
>> >> >> bombs, so the decision to use them was in service of
ending the
>> >> >> Nipponese
>> >> >> war sooner rather than later.> Or the fire
bombing of
>> >> >> Germany?Without
>> >> >> reviewing the technical details, I will just say
that after the
>> >> >> U.S.
>> >> >> joined the Allied cause then underway, there was a
strong
>> >> >> determination
>> >> >> to see the war effort through to a victorious
decision. No one
>> >> >> doubted
>> >> >> the justness of the Allied cause, nor did anyone
doubt that the
>> >> >> awful
>> >> >> destruction was beneath the dignified preferences of
civil
>> >> >> societies.
>> >> >> However, the Axis aggression had to be stopped, and
the prosecution
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> the European efforts continued until that goal was
reached. Whether
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> goal could have been achieved more
>> >> >> optimally with less destruction was a judgment
call; second
>> >> >> guessing
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> arm-chair quarterbacking more than half a century
later won't
>> >> >> change
>> >> >> their determination then to get the job done with
what was
>> >> >> available.>
>> >> >> Or, the actions Europeans took in the Americas after
stumbling upon
>> >> >> the>
>> >> >> contintents?Considering that Europeans first began
attempting
>> >> >> permanent
>> >> >> North American settlements centuries ago, it is even
more important
>> >> >> for
>> >> >> us not to impose our mind-set on their attitudes and
motivations.
>> >> >> Some
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> the earliest were explorers, somewhat later they
were escaping
>> >> >> religious
>> >> >> differences. Yes, they had racist attitudes. Yes,
they felt their
>> >> >> technologies and their old-world civilization gave
them a sense of
>> >> >> entitlement to what they saw before them. There was
no North
>> >> >> American
>> >> >> parliament with proportional representation of the
indigenous
>> >> >> peoples,
>> >> >> and if anyone had been so foolish as
>> >> >> to suggest one, they would have been laughed, or
worse, out of the
>> >> >> colony.>From our contemporary understandings we
can easily and
>> >> >> glibly
>> >> >> say
>> >> >> that the Europeans should have accepted the natives
as human
>> >> >> equals.
>> >> >> But
>> >> >> not all of them were willing to accept the
"savages" as fully
>> >> >> human.
>> >> >> They
>> >> >> didnot have the advantage of knowing about Darwinian
science,
>> >> >> Mendelian
>> >> >> genetics, and contemporary molecular biology that
illustrates our
>> >> >> closer
>> >> >> human kinship than their observations of skin color,
physiognomy,
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> social culture allowed. Even today not all of us
have learned these
>> >> >> lessons sufficiently well, so who are we to suggest
that those
>> >> >> early
>> >> >> colonists were incompletely informed?> After all,
there are those
>> >> >> who
>> >> >> do
>> >> >> the same in those instances.> My comment
wasn't so much anti-war as
>> >> >> it
>> >> >> was historical fact. For some> reason Vietnam and
Kennedy are kept
>> >> >> conspicuously separated in
>> >> >> history> textbooks, even though Kennedy's
actions led the U.S.
>> >> >> directly
>> >> >> intothe> Vietnam war.Yes, it is true that many
Americans are a
>> >> >> soft-hearted bunch, preferring polite conversation
and gentle
>> >> >> reminiscences of how nice the Kennedy family looked,
how cute and
>> >> >> adorable the children were, and on and on. Oh my,
wouldn't it be
>> >> >> fun
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> sail with Jack and the boys, or ride English
side-saddle with
>> >> >> Jackie
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> the ladies? How wonderful we could feel about
ourselves,
>> >> >> fantasizing
>> >> >> ourselves into a far-away Camelot!As the older
generations fade
>> >> >> into
>> >> >> memory, younger generations of historians will
probably have
>> >> >> sharper
>> >> >> things to say about how close we came to a Soviet
American war near
>> >> >> Cuba,
>> >> >> and how lucky we were for back-channel communication
between the
>> >> >> nonagenarian English Lord Russell and Nikita
Khrushchev, and some
>> >> >> other
>> >> >> fortunate military command communications incidents
that
>> >> >> forestalled active engagement.> On another note,
it was Kennedy
>> >> >> who
>> >> >> signed legislation allowing U.S.> companies to
set up shop in
>> >> >> foriegn
>> >> >> countries without having to pay U.S.> income
taxes on their profits
>> >> >> from
>> >> >> those units. The idea was that by> bringing jobs
into countries
>> >> >> that
>> >> >> were
>> >> >> at risk of falling to the commies,> it would make
communism less
>> >> >> appealing. It was a logical move.There probably were
multiple
>> >> >> reasons
>> >> >> for
>> >> >> allowing tax-free foreign commerce by American
organizations.
>> >> >> Profits
>> >> >> likely were a part of it, as was the opportunity to
extend the de
>> >> >> facto
>> >> >> American intelligence network abroad, but outside of
the usual
>> >> >> military
>> >> >> and diplomatic channels. And I would not be
surprised to learn that
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> administration found it convenient to allow certain
organizations
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> operate profitably without any necessity for their
books to be
>> >> >> examined
>> >> >> by anyone in an official sphere. The
>> >> >> darker corners of commercial activity can benefit
more than just
>> >> >> capitalists, as many have noted since then.>
Unfortunately, an
>> >> >> unintended
>> >> >> consequence has been the wholesale migration> of
U.S. companies
>> >> >> abroad.Companies have been operating for profit
internationally
>> >> >> since
>> >> >> ancient trading times, so international business is
nothing new.
>> >> >> Consequences, unintended or not, can be changed if
the courage and
>> >> >> collective will are marshalled to change laws and
behaviors to more
>> >> >> desirable patterns. This is a question of needed
leadership, not of
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> horses irrevocably having escaped the barn.> How
much howling from
>> >> >> big
>> >> >> biz do you think there would be if the law was>
repealed and they
>> >> >> had
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> pay taxes on their foreign income?How much howling
is there over
>> >> >> any
>> >> >> contentious tax issue? Capital gains, for example?
Too often, the
>> >> >> lobbyists and the committee chairmen decide their
>> >> >> answer, and that's that. Powerless citizens
may howl all they
>> >> >> wish,
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> little avail. Powerful interests need not howl at
all; they pay
>> >> >> their
>> >> >> agents and their will is carried out via gallons of
ink printed on
>> >> >> paper
>> >> >> mountains.Fundamental tax reform, as opposed to
rearrangement of
>> >> >> regulations, is relatively rare in the United
States. For example,
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> US
>> >> >> does not have a national property tax on large
holdings of private
>> >> >> property, specifically land. Why do not corporations
and
>> >> >> individuals
>> >> >> who
>> >> >> own millions of acres of land pay no federal
property taxes on
>> >> >> those
>> >> >> large holdings? Exemptions for a few thousand acres
of actively
>> >> >> farmed,
>> >> >> or recently fallowed, land could easily be arranged,
so working
>> >> >> farm
>> >> >> families would be exempted. So, for the remaining
land hoarders,
>> >> >> why
>> >> >> should they not pay some small rate of property tax
to help offset
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> government expenses of their national defense and
liberties
>> >> >> preservation? Jefferson bought the Louisiana
Purchase from the
>> >> >> French
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> enlarge the United States. Don't we all have an
obligation to
>> >> >> periodically re-examine who owns what land, and to
re-evaluate how
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> keep that land optimally productive, financially and
>> >> >>
environmentally?Ken=======================================================
>> >> >> List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the
>> >> >> communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> >> >> http://www.fsr.net
>> >> >>
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com=======================================================
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
=======================================================
>> >> >> List services made available by First
Step Internet,
>> >> >> serving the communities of the Palouse
since 1994.
>> >> >> http://www.fsr.net
>> >> >> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> >> >>
=======================================================
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >
>> > =======================================================
>> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> > http://www.fsr.net
>> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> > =======================================================
>>
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
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