[Vision2020] DARE to speak the truth
Saundra Lund
sslund_2007 at verizon.net
Wed Feb 25 11:47:51 PST 2009
I remember back in the Dark Ages when my daughter got her first taste of
DARE in kindergarten. I have to preface it by saying that I think Moscow's
DARE officers have done an excellent job with what they've had to work with,
and I think having the DARE officers go into the classroom in a
non-threatening way is a Great thing overall, although I'd prefer a
different program than DARE to get them there.
Anyway, after that first day, we were discussing what she'd learned, and all
was well until she saw my pack of cigarettes, at which point she gasped,
pointed and said, "Mommy, that's drugs!" Which, of course, sparked a great
conversation :-)
The scene was repeated later that night when she realized that the glass of
wine Daddy had every night with dinner as also "drugs!"
At that point, the devil just got into me. Using the same conspiratorial
low voice she'd been using to tell us about what she'd learned, I introduced
the topic of caffeine, which so many teachers walked around school with in
their cups of coffee :-) And that was also in the Coke the was my almost
constant companion at the time :-) Her parents were, to the kindergartener
who'd had one day of DARE, drug addicts, what with our nicotine, caffeine,
and alcohol!
We talked it through even more, and she had a ***much*** better
understanding of the finer details that either hadn't been taught that first
day or hadn't managed to make in through her kindergarten cognitive
functioning in a sensible way.
And, we got a great story to tell through the years :-)
Saundra Lund
Moscow, ID
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
nothing.
~ Edmund Burke
***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2009 through life plus
70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside
the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the
author.*****
-----Original Message-----
From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
On Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 7:40 AM
To: vision2020
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] DARE to speak the truth
I don't understand how the DARE program can preach abstinence and then
set up activities for the kids where they give them lots of drugs and
let them stay up all night playing video games (another drug I would
argue). My boys had a lot of fun in Insomnia Outbreak though, it just
gave me quite the snicker when I found out it was payed for by DARE money..
Dave
Bill London wrote:
> DARE, like abstinence-only sex education, sounds great to older,
> conservative voters.....but the real question is ... do these programs
work?
> Do young people respond to these messages and alter their behavior?
> The answer now, after years of effort and years of study, is nope.
> BL
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "lfalen" <lfalen at turbonet.com>
> To: "Warren Hayman" <whayman at roadrunner.com>; "Sue Hovey"
> <suehovey at moscow.com>; <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>;
> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 1:03 PM
> Subject: [Vision2020] [Spam 5.59] Re: Subject change to "Was it Necessary
> toUse theAtomicBombs on Japan?" Former title Presidential Rankings
>
>
>
>> D.A.R.E is a good program. The idea behind it is to say no to a dare.
>> Roger
>> -----Original message-----
>> From: "Warren Hayman" whayman at roadrunner.com
>> Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 19:13:36 -0800
>> To: "lfalen" lfalen at turbonet.com, "Sue Hovey" suehovey at moscow.com,
>> donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com, vision2020 at moscow.com
>> Subject: [Spam 5.59] Re: [Vision2020] Subject change to "Was it Necessary
>> to Use theAtomicBombs on Japan?" Former title Presidential Rankings
>>
>>
>>> So we can get rid of the DARE program in the school district? Great
idea!
>>>
>>> Warren Hayman
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "lfalen" <lfalen at turbonet.com>
>>> To: "Sue Hovey" <suehovey at moscow.com>; <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>;
>>> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>> Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 12:34 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Subject change to "Was it Necessary to Use
>>> theAtomicBombs on Japan?" Former title Presidential Rankings
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Sue
>>>> The mentality behind issuing a dare is harmful, just as is the
>>>> mentality
>>>> of casting shame on being an snitch, or stoolie. A dare is a challenge
>>>> to
>>>> some ones bravery, like you are a coward if you don't accept. This can
>>>> get
>>>> kids in a lot of trouble and should be something teachers are fighting
>>>> against. In reality rejecting a dare takes more courage than accepting
>>>> one.
>>>> Roger
>>>> -----Original message-----
>>>> From: "Sue Hovey" suehovey at moscow.com
>>>> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 01:03:25 -0800
>>>> To: "lfalen" lfalen at turbonet.com, donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com,
>>>> vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Subject change to "Was it Necessary to Use
>>>> the
>>>> AtomicBombs on Japan?" Former title Presidential Rankings
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I sent this to Donovan. I didn't dare you to do anything....I don't
>>>>> care
>>>>> whether you read Hershey's book or not...And why, pray tell, is it
>>>>> shameful
>>>>> for me to issue a dare to him? Are your standards for teachers
>>>>> somewhat
>>>>> more skewed than for other such ordinary folk? He didn't respond
>>>>> anyway,
>>>>> so
>>>>> we'll never know whether he decided to read it. And the word is
>>>>> bearing.....
>>>>>
>>>>> Sue H.
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "lfalen" <lfalen at turbonet.com>
>>>>> To: "Sue Hovey" <suehovey at moscow.com>; <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>;
>>>>> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 9:50 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Subject change to "Was it Necessary to Use
>>>>> the
>>>>> AtomicBombs on Japan?" Former title Presidential Rankings
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Shame on you Sue as a teacher for issuing a dare. I may or may not
>>>>>> read
>>>>>> Hershey's book. A dare would have absolutely no baring on it.
>>>>>> Roger
>>>>>> -----Original message-----
>>>>>> From: "Sue Hovey" suehovey at moscow.com
>>>>>> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 02:12:03 -0800
>>>>>> To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com, vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>> Subject: [Vision2020] Subject change to "Was it Necessary to Use the
>>>>>> AtomicBombs on Japan?" Former title Presidential Rankings
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. I agree, it did end the war quickly--in a matter of days.
>>>>>>> 2. And if the bombs hadn't been dropped, how much less intact
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> Japan been on Sep 1, 1945?
>>>>>>> 3. It did that. And we had committed to the goal of unconditional
>>>>>>> surrender.
>>>>>>> 4. No, no, no....it did not.
>>>>>>> 5. But they didn't back out of Germany....And they were already
>>>>>>> developing nuclear weapons.
>>>>>>> 6. Well you got me there & I was living in Texas then, but Bentson
>>>>>>> wasn't the U.S. Senator from Texas until quite a bit later, so I
>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>> don't believe this happened. During the Korean war I think our
>>>>>>> senators
>>>>>>> were LBJ and Tom Connally.
>>>>>>> 7. Maybe so, maybe not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Go ahead and read Hershey's book. I double dare you. You may not
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> convinced, but you will have another perspective to chew on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sue H.
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: Donovan Arnold
>>>>>>> To: vision2020 at moscow.com ; Sue Hovey
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 8:45 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Presidential Rankings (2009)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sue,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It was necessary to drop the bomb for several reasons.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1) It brought a quick end to the war
>>>>>>> 2) It kept the rest of Japan intact
>>>>>>> 3) It gave us an unconditional surrender, which is what the
>>>>>>> Allies swore to do
>>>>>>> 4) It limited Casualties on both sides of the war
>>>>>>> 5) It showed Russia that we have the bomb, and will use it,
>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>> back out of Germany and Western Europe.
>>>>>>> 6) The aftermath of the A-Bomb, its horrible impact on
>>>>>>> people,
>>>>>>> helped Senator Benston-D Texas, convince the Senate to block
>>>>>>> General
>>>>>>> MacArthur's attempts to end the Korean War by dropping 50 A-Bombs
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> China.
>>>>>>> 7) It has prevented anyone from using a nuclear bomb again
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, I have read the arguments. I don't think your friend,
>>>>>>> Hershey, had any greater insight than Truman or his advisers.
>>>>>>> Hershey
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> just 31, Truman was President, he had more information and a bigger
>>>>>>> picture of the issues at the time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The consequences of not dropping the bomb would have been
>>>>>>> worse.
>>>>>>> Hard to believe, but it would have been.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Donovan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --- On Thu, 2/19/09, Sue Hovey <suehovey at moscow.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: Sue Hovey <suehovey at moscow.com>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Presidential Rankings (2009)
>>>>>>> To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com, vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>>> Date: Thursday, February 19, 2009, 8:10 PM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Donovan,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For an interesting and opposing view, you might take a
>>>>>>> look
>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>> John Hershey's Hiroshima, the Aftermath, published in the 1980s.
>>>>>>> It's
>>>>>>> one thing to have had to make that call, as Truman did, for a
>>>>>>> nation
>>>>>>> weary of war, and quite another to quote as fact today the idea
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> dropping of the atom bombs was necessary to save a million lives.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sue H.
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: Donovan Arnold
>>>>>>> To: vision2020 at moscow.com ; Kenneth Marcy
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 4:27 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Presidential Rankings (2009)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> People that were against the dropping of the atom
>>>>>>> bombs
>>>>>>> on Japan in WWII were obviously ignorant of the larger number of
>>>>>>> causalities it would have cost both Japan and the US in its place,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> were insensitive to massive suffering and loss of life that the US
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> others had already endured.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Truman only had two options. 1) To kill one
>>>>>>> million
>>>>>>> more people, both Japanese and Americans, or 2) Kill 100,000
>>>>>>> Japanese
>>>>>>> that started the war and end it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To me, the choice is obvious. I am sure Truman
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>> have dropped 12 billion roses instead if it ended the war, but it
>>>>>>> wouldn't, so he did what had to do to end the war. And dropping the
>>>>>>> bomb
>>>>>>> barely did end the war as Japan still didn't want to surrender
>>>>>>> initially
>>>>>>> after that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best Regards.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Donovan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --- On Thu, 2/19/09, Kenneth Marcy
>>>>>>> <kmmos1 at verizon.net>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: Kenneth Marcy <kmmos1 at verizon.net>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Presidential Rankings
>>>>>>> (2009)
>>>>>>> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>>> Date: Thursday, February 19, 2009, 12:45 PM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wednesday 18 February 2009 14:03:26 Kai Eiselein wrote:> Sooooo,
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>> this apply to those who condemn the use of nuclear bombs on>
>>>>>>> Japan?Yes. I
>>>>>>> think that the Allies, and the Americans specifically, were
>>>>>>> war-weary
>>>>>>> from large social and industrial reorganizations to support a war
>>>>>>> effort
>>>>>>> then beyond all those previous. The prospect of any necessity of
>>>>>>> taking a
>>>>>>> land war from the Allies into Asia implied such huge additional
>>>>>>> losses
>>>>>>> that any way to end the Nipponese war, and prevent its spread more
>>>>>>> generally to Asia, was seen as a useful effort.More so than any
>>>>>>> subsequent major conflict, World War II was seen as a just war; the
>>>>>>> Allied cause was worth winning for good reasons, and all efforts
>>>>>>> toward
>>>>>>> that end were justified.Yes, the atomic destruction was horrific,
>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>> doubt about it, and on sight of the test blast, the
>>>>>>> decision makers all knew it. Oppenheimer said in New Mexico "I am
>>>>>>> become
>>>>>>> death." And the chain of command, from Groves upto Marshall and
>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> Truman, presumably had some idea of the much larger magnitude of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> atom
>>>>>>> bombs, so the decision to use them was in service of ending the
>>>>>>> Nipponese
>>>>>>> war sooner rather than later.> Or the fire bombing of
>>>>>>> Germany?Without
>>>>>>> reviewing the technical details, I will just say that after the
>>>>>>> U.S.
>>>>>>> joined the Allied cause then underway, there was a strong
>>>>>>> determination
>>>>>>> to see the war effort through to a victorious decision. No one
>>>>>>> doubted
>>>>>>> the justness of the Allied cause, nor did anyone doubt that the
>>>>>>> awful
>>>>>>> destruction was beneath the dignified preferences of civil
>>>>>>> societies.
>>>>>>> However, the Axis aggression had to be stopped, and the prosecution
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the European efforts continued until that goal was reached. Whether
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> goal could have been achieved more
>>>>>>> optimally with less destruction was a judgment call; second
>>>>>>> guessing
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> arm-chair quarterbacking more than half a century later won't
>>>>>>> change
>>>>>>> their determination then to get the job done with what was
>>>>>>> available.>
>>>>>>> Or, the actions Europeans took in the Americas after stumbling upon
>>>>>>> the>
>>>>>>> contintents?Considering that Europeans first began attempting
>>>>>>> permanent
>>>>>>> North American settlements centuries ago, it is even more important
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> us not to impose our mind-set on their attitudes and motivations.
>>>>>>> Some
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the earliest were explorers, somewhat later they were escaping
>>>>>>> religious
>>>>>>> differences. Yes, they had racist attitudes. Yes, they felt their
>>>>>>> technologies and their old-world civilization gave them a sense of
>>>>>>> entitlement to what they saw before them. There was no North
>>>>>>> American
>>>>>>> parliament with proportional representation of the indigenous
>>>>>>> peoples,
>>>>>>> and if anyone had been so foolish as
>>>>>>> to suggest one, they would have been laughed, or worse, out of the
>>>>>>> colony.>From our contemporary understandings we can easily and
>>>>>>> glibly
>>>>>>> say
>>>>>>> that the Europeans should have accepted the natives as human
>>>>>>> equals.
>>>>>>> But
>>>>>>> not all of them were willing to accept the "savages" as fully
>>>>>>> human.
>>>>>>> They
>>>>>>> didnot have the advantage of knowing about Darwinian science,
>>>>>>> Mendelian
>>>>>>> genetics, and contemporary molecular biology that illustrates our
>>>>>>> closer
>>>>>>> human kinship than their observations of skin color, physiognomy,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> social culture allowed. Even today not all of us have learned these
>>>>>>> lessons sufficiently well, so who are we to suggest that those
>>>>>>> early
>>>>>>> colonists were incompletely informed?> After all, there are those
>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>> the same in those instances.> My comment wasn't so much anti-war as
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> was historical fact. For some> reason Vietnam and Kennedy are kept
>>>>>>> conspicuously separated in
>>>>>>> history> textbooks, even though Kennedy's actions led the U.S.
>>>>>>> directly
>>>>>>> intothe> Vietnam war.Yes, it is true that many Americans are a
>>>>>>> soft-hearted bunch, preferring polite conversation and gentle
>>>>>>> reminiscences of how nice the Kennedy family looked, how cute and
>>>>>>> adorable the children were, and on and on. Oh my, wouldn't it be
>>>>>>> fun
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> sail with Jack and the boys, or ride English side-saddle with
>>>>>>> Jackie
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> the ladies? How wonderful we could feel about ourselves,
>>>>>>> fantasizing
>>>>>>> ourselves into a far-away Camelot!As the older generations fade
>>>>>>> into
>>>>>>> memory, younger generations of historians will probably have
>>>>>>> sharper
>>>>>>> things to say about how close we came to a Soviet American war near
>>>>>>> Cuba,
>>>>>>> and how lucky we were for back-channel communication between the
>>>>>>> nonagenarian English Lord Russell and Nikita Khrushchev, and some
>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>> fortunate military command communications incidents that
>>>>>>> forestalled active engagement.> On another note, it was Kennedy
>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>> signed legislation allowing U.S.> companies to set up shop in
>>>>>>> foriegn
>>>>>>> countries without having to pay U.S.> income taxes on their profits
>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>> those units. The idea was that by> bringing jobs into countries
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>> at risk of falling to the commies,> it would make communism less
>>>>>>> appealing. It was a logical move.There probably were multiple
>>>>>>> reasons
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> allowing tax-free foreign commerce by American organizations.
>>>>>>> Profits
>>>>>>> likely were a part of it, as was the opportunity to extend the de
>>>>>>> facto
>>>>>>> American intelligence network abroad, but outside of the usual
>>>>>>> military
>>>>>>> and diplomatic channels. And I would not be surprised to learn that
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> administration found it convenient to allow certain organizations
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> operate profitably without any necessity for their books to be
>>>>>>> examined
>>>>>>> by anyone in an official sphere. The
>>>>>>> darker corners of commercial activity can benefit more than just
>>>>>>> capitalists, as many have noted since then.> Unfortunately, an
>>>>>>> unintended
>>>>>>> consequence has been the wholesale migration> of U.S. companies
>>>>>>> abroad.Companies have been operating for profit internationally
>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>> ancient trading times, so international business is nothing new.
>>>>>>> Consequences, unintended or not, can be changed if the courage and
>>>>>>> collective will are marshalled to change laws and behaviors to more
>>>>>>> desirable patterns. This is a question of needed leadership, not of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> horses irrevocably having escaped the barn.> How much howling from
>>>>>>> big
>>>>>>> biz do you think there would be if the law was> repealed and they
>>>>>>> had
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> pay taxes on their foreign income?How much howling is there over
>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>> contentious tax issue? Capital gains, for example? Too often, the
>>>>>>> lobbyists and the committee chairmen decide their
>>>>>>> answer, and that's that. Powerless citizens may howl all they
>>>>>>> wish,
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> little avail. Powerful interests need not howl at all; they pay
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>> agents and their will is carried out via gallons of ink printed on
>>>>>>> paper
>>>>>>> mountains.Fundamental tax reform, as opposed to rearrangement of
>>>>>>> regulations, is relatively rare in the United States. For example,
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> US
>>>>>>> does not have a national property tax on large holdings of private
>>>>>>> property, specifically land. Why do not corporations and
>>>>>>> individuals
>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>> own millions of acres of land pay no federal property taxes on
>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>> large holdings? Exemptions for a few thousand acres of actively
>>>>>>> farmed,
>>>>>>> or recently fallowed, land could easily be arranged, so working
>>>>>>> farm
>>>>>>> families would be exempted. So, for the remaining land hoarders,
>>>>>>> why
>>>>>>> should they not pay some small rate of property tax to help offset
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> government expenses of their national defense and liberties
>>>>>>> preservation? Jefferson bought the Louisiana Purchase from the
>>>>>>> French
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> enlarge the United States. Don't we all have an obligation to
>>>>>>> periodically re-examine who owns what land, and to re-evaluate how
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> keep that land optimally productive, financially and
>>>>>>>
environmentally?Ken=======================================================
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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