[Vision2020] Humane interrogations work

[Garrett Clevenger]

g writes:

"Let me get this straight. Imperial Japan and Adolph Hitler and the Nazi's were the recipients of "violent US policy against people the US wanted to conform in it's image."


Yes, but to restate what I had written before, unfortunately sometimes that's what it takes to stop others from using violent policy to force people to conform to their image. We are just naked chimps with super deadly weapons. And to think some can't except evolution. Either that, or indeed, we are created in the image of a jealous, vengeance and violent God.

Whatever the case, let's remember that the US is the only country to drop not just one, but two atomic bombs on innocent people. Whether that was right or wrong is not the point, though, seeing as that opened Pandora's box, leading to the cold war and the contamination to build all those nukes, leading to tens of thousands of nuclear bombs, many of which are now unaccounted for. The repercussions of that has not played itself out yet.

The war of terror is not WW2, despite the analogies that the US is engaging in similar tactics, albeit to a lesser degree, as nazi Germany and imperial Japan did, which should come as no surprise consider GW Bush's grandfather was a nazi sympathizer. I believe the US headed towards fascism under Bush's administration.

That's what's too much...

gclev
--- On Tue, 2/24/09, a <smith at turbonet.com> wrote:

> From: a <smith at turbonet.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work
> To: garrettmc at verizon.net, "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>, "vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Date: Tuesday, February 24, 2009, 8:42 AM
> Reading your list of possible other people who could have a
> vendetta against the US, g, leads to one common demoninator:
> violent US policy against people the US wanted to conform in
> it's image.
> 
> Let me get this straight. Imperial Japan and Adolph Hitler
> and the Nazi's were the recipients of "violent US
> policy against people the US wanted to conform in it's
> image."
> 
> You're to much.
> 
> g
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Garrett
> Clevenger" <garrettmc at verizon.net>
> To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>;
> "vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 11:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work
> 
> 
> > Reading your list of possible other people who could
> have a vendetta against the US, g, leads to one common
> demoninator: violent US policy against people the US wanted
> to conform in it's image.
> > 
> > Put that together with the common denominator
> you've deduced and you get another common denominator:
> violent people wanting to control the world.
> > 
> > The American empire is not the only problem. It's
> the fanatics behind any ideology who are willing to kill.
> Just because the militant Islamists are doing it is no
> justification that others should do it.
> > 
> > The example the US sets sows the the seeds. Why would
> we expect other ego's to be any better, if what they see
> is the US willing to shock and awe the world into
> submission?
> > 
> > Which leads to the lingo behind the war machine:
> hellfire missles, divine strafe bombs, President Bush
> calling it a "crusade." When you put religious
> terms on violent policies and weapons, that leads to another
> common denominator: believing God condones that violent
> behavior and moral superiority.
> > 
> > Until we get rational leaders willing to understand
> violence begets violence, we'll keep reaping violence.
> > 
> > You end writing, "I, Personally, refuse to
> apologize and I'm not to wild about submission,
> conversion is out of the question, and when it comes to
> death I figure better them then me. Call me crazy."
> > 
> > That's not crazy, as we all feel it. That's
> what's driving the whole insanity, though, and all the
> bombs and blood spilt's not going to change it. Which
> leads me to conclude we're creating our own hell, which
> is quite ironic.
> > 
> > Which leads to a final common denomitor: evil.
> > 
> > gclev
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- On Mon, 2/23/09, g. crabtree
> <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> From: g. crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations
> work
> >> To: garrettmc at verizon.net, "vision 2020"
> <vision2020 at moscow.com>, "Sunil Ramalingam"
> <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> >> Date: Monday, February 23, 2009, 8:09 PM
> >> "Is it so hard for you to admit that there is
> a
> >> possibility that US policy
> >> has indeed created the very terrorists we are
> trying to
> >> destroy? And I'm
> >> not talking about because they hate our freedom or
> values,
> >> but because we
> >> have killed innocents as well..."
> >> 
> >> If I believed for one minute that it were true I
> >> wouldn't. I believe that the enemy
> >> we are at war with does in fact hate our freedoms
> and
> >> values and resents its own
> >> lack stature in the world, particularly in light
> of what it
> >> sees as its former glory.
> >> 
> >> If, as you claim, the terrorism we face today is
> brought
> >> about by the innocents
> >> who have died as a by product of US actions why do
> we see
> >> no North American indig
> >> terrorism? After WW I & II did we endure a
> rash of
> >> Teutonic terrorism? Radical Shinto
> >> terrorism? Vietnamese terrorism? Do you contend
> that no
> >> innocents were inadvertently
> >> killed during these conflicts? What is the
> difference
> >> between then and now, them and
> >> our current foes? Why did our actions then not
> give rise to
> >> the same terrorism we see now?
> >> 
> >> If this problem truly is all about "American
> >> empire" why do bombs go off in night clubs
> >> in Bali and subways in Spain? Why riots in France,
> murders
> >> in the Netherlands. European
> >> tourists murdered and maimed in Cairo. China is
> >> experiencing problems with a certain
> >> belligerent religious minority. Even the UK, a
> country that
> >> bends over backward to appease its
> >> malcontents is experiencing extreme unrest.
> >> 
> >> The inescapable conclusion a rational person will
> come to
> >> is that militant Islam and
> >> wahabaism are the common denominator and I firmly
> believe
> >> that you can offer up all
> >> the maudlin mea culpas and a truck load of tearful
> >> apologies and it won't reduce the
> >> terrorism one little bit. Even if we were to
> attempt to
> >> placate them by joining in with
> >> their unconscionable pogrom to eradicate Jews,
> their
> >> goodwill (the aftermath in Bosnia being a shining
> >> example of undying Islamic gratitude) would only
> last until
> >> their goal had been met and we would
> >> be back to the status quo of submit, convert, or
> die.
> >> 
> >> I, Personally, refuse to apologize and I'm not
> to wild
> >> about submission,
> >> conversion is out of the question, and when it
> comes to
> >> death I figure better
> >> them then me. Call me crazy.
> >> 
> >> As-sallamu aleykum!
> >> g
> >> 
> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Garrett
> >> Clevenger" <garrettmc at verizon.net>
> >> To: "vision 2020"
> <vision2020 at moscow.com>;
> >> "Sunil Ramalingam"
> >> <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>; "g.
> crabtree"
> >> <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> >> Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 8:18 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations
> work
> >> 
> >> 
> >> > You are correct, g, there are exceptions to
> any rule.
> >> If someone were pointing a gun at someone I love,
> I
> >> wouldn't hesitate to do what is necessary to
> insure
> >> their survival. Yes, there are bad people who
> probably
> >> should be culled out.
> >> >
> >> > Unfortunately, national defense does require
> the use
> >> of the same force in certain circumstances. As I
> didn't
> >> want to subject this list to more cataloging than
> I've
> >> already inputed, I suppose my lack of specifics
> may lead
> >> some to believe I believe otherwise. In your
> wisdom, you
> >> point out that my general argument is not
> universal.
> >> >
> >> > That's different than preemptively using
> such
> >> force half way around the world based on false
> pretenses,
> >> particularly when that argument can be used by the
> other
> >> side to strike first as well.
> >> >
> >> > The fact is, not only do we share similar
> >> justification with the other side, the US is the
> one who has
> >> spent billions more $$$, killed a lot more people
> and caused
> >> way more destruction than we have received, while
> >> threatening our children's future with not
> only the
> >> financial debt they'll incur, but the added
> seeds of
> >> resentment that surely will keep the spiral
> rolling
> >> indefinitely.
> >> >
> >> > I hate calling that a war, because wars
> eventually
> >> end.
> >> >
> >> > Is it so hard for you to admit that there is
> a
> >> possibility that US policy has indeed created the
> very
> >> terrorists we are trying to destroy? And I'm
> not talking
> >> about because they hate our freedom or values, but
> because
> >> we have killed innocents as well...
> >> >
> >> > gclev
> >> >
> >> > --- On Mon, 2/23/09, g. crabtree
> >> <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> From: g. crabtree
> <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane
> interrogations
> >> work
> >> >> To: garrettmc at verizon.net, "vision
> 2020"
> >> <vision2020 at moscow.com>, "Sunil
> Ramalingam"
> >> <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> >> >> Date: Monday, February 23, 2009, 7:27 AM
> >> >> The quote:
> >> >>
> >> >> " I imagine most of these acts are
> >> >>  consequences of the American Empire
> willing to
> >> commit the
> >> >>  same atrocities."
> >> >>
> >> >> I suppose the question is, the same as
> who, The
> >> Girl
> >> >> Scouts? The Red Cross? It seems clear to
> me that
> >> since the
> >> >> topic was terrorism and that among the
> terrorists
> >> in
> >> >> question we find the taliban and al-qaeda
> at the
> >> top of the
> >> >> list, there was no need for wild
> speculation on my
> >> part.
> >> >>
> >> >> Moving on, "Anyone willing to kill
> for their
> >> agenda is
> >> >> sick and should be treated. Perhaps a
> lobotomy
> >> would be the
> >> >> cure, rather than killing them
> outright?"
> >> >>
> >> >> I guess I have to assume that,
> considering your
> >> moral
> >> >> equivalence position that you include US
> and
> >> coalition
> >> >> troops in this group along with law
> enforcement
> >> officials
> >> >> and anyone else who might be willing to
> use
> >> ultimate
> >> >> measures to protect themselves or there
> loved
> >> ones?
> >> >>
> >> >> There's going to be a dreadful dearth
> of
> >> stimulating
> >> >> conversation in your little corner of
> Hell.
> >> >>
> >> >> g
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From:
> "Garrett
> >> Clevenger"
> >> >> <garrettmc at verizon.net>
> >> >> To: "vision 2020"
> >> <vision2020 at moscow.com>;
> >> >> "Sunil Ramalingam"
> >> >> <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> >> >> Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 10:25 PM
> >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane
> interrogations
> >> work
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > Thanks, Sunil. I suppose we all read
> between
> >> the lines
> >> >> in our interpretations of the limitation
> of email
> >> >> conversation. Once we get hot-headed,
> that
> >> interpretation
> >> >> probably is distorted even more so.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Obviously, moral equivalences are
> not so much
> >> based on
> >> >> particular nationalities, but on the
> individuals
> >> who act
> >> >> immoral.  Some in the US probably are the
> moral
> >> equivalent
> >> >> of some members of the taliban or al
> qaeda.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Anyone willing to kill for their
> agenda is
> >> sick and
> >> >> should be treated. Perhaps a lobotomy
> would be the
> >> cure,
> >> >> rather than killing them outright?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > gclev
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --- On Sun, 2/22/09, Sunil
> Ramalingam
> >> >> <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> From: Sunil Ramalingam
> >> >> <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> >> >> >> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Humane
> >> interrogations
> >> >> work
> >> >> >> To: jampot at roadrunner.com,
> >> garrettmc at verizon.net,
> >> >> "vision 2020"
> >> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> >> >> Date: Sunday, February 22, 2009,
> 9:35 PM
> >> >> >> I don't think Garrett made
> the claim
> >> you
> >> >> attribute to
> >> >> >> him, and you're speculating
> wildly in
> >> claiming
> >> >> he
> >> >> >> believes what you write below.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Do you really think that
> dropping bombs
> >> on cities
> >> >> has some
> >> >> >> moral superiority over
> >> 'terrorism?'  Are
> >> >> those
> >> >> >> victims any less dead?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Sunil
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > From: jampot at roadrunner.com
> >> >> >> > To: garrettmc at verizon.net;
> >> >> vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> >> >> > Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009
> 19:29:11
> >> -0800
> >> >> >> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
> Humane
> >> >> interrogations work
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Take from my response
> anything you
> >> like.
> >> >> It's
> >> >> >> definitely not that I have no
> >> >> >> > argument with your
> diatribe,
> >> it's just
> >> >> that I see
> >> >> >> little point in trying to
> >> >> >> > have a discussion with
> anyone who
> >> actually
> >> >> believes
> >> >> >> that the USA is the
> >> >> >> > moral equivalent of
> al-qaeda or the
> >> taliban.
> >> >> If
> >> >> >> that's the world you live in
> >> >> >> > I feel sorry for you but I
> really
> >> don't
> >> >> believe
> >> >> >> there is any common ground
> >> >> >> > from which to move this
> dialog
> >> forward. As
> >> >> for your
> >> >> >> infernal living
> >> >> >> > arrangements, again my
> sympathies
> >> but I'm
> >> >> afraid I
> >> >> >> can accept no
> >> >> >> > responsibility for where
> you choose
> >> to
> >> >> reside.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > g
> >> >> >> > ----- Original Message
> -----
> >> >> > From: "Garrett Clevenger"
> >> >> >> <garrettmc at verizon.net>
> >> >> >> > To:
> <vision2020 at moscow.com>;
> >> "g.
> >> >> >> crabtree"
> >> <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> >> >> >> > Sent: Sunday, February 22,
> 2009 5:49
> >> PM
> >> >> >> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
> Humane
> >> >> interrogations work
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > > I'll take it from
> your
> >> snide
> >> >> response, g,
> >> >> >> that you have no argument
> >> >> >> > > against my diatribe.
> >> >> >> > >
> >> >> >> > > You did prove
> Donovan's
> >> point,
> >> >> though, that
> >> >> >> some poeple just can't be
> >> >> >> > > reasoned with, and my
> point,
> >> due to
> >> >> this, that
> >> >> >> perhaps we are condemned to
> >> >> >> > > live in Hell.
> >> >> >> > >
> >> >> >> > > Congratulation's
> on helping
> >> keep the
> >> >> ball
> >> >> >> rolling...
> >> >> >> > >
> >> >> >> > > gclev
> >> >> >> > >
> >> >> >> > >
> >> >> >> > > --- On Sun, 2/22/09,
> g.
> >> crabtree
> >> >> >> <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> wrote:
> >> >> >> > >
> >> >> >> > >> From: g. crabtree
> >> >> >> <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> >> >> >> > >> Subject: Re:
> [Vision2020]
> >> Humane
> >> >> >> interrogations work
> >> >> >> > >> To:
> garrettmc at verizon.net,
> >> >> >> vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> >> >> > >> Date: Sunday,
> February 22,
> >> 2009,
> >> >> 12:25 PM
> >> >> >> > >> "I imagine
> most of
> >> these acts
> >> >> are
> >> >> >> consequences of the
> >> >> >> > >> American Empire
> willing to
> >> commit
> >> >> the same
> >> >> >> atrocities."
> >> >> >> > >>
> >> >> >> > >> I'm thinking
> not so
> >> much a book
> >> >> as a tool
> >> >> >> catalog.
> >> >> >> > >>
> >> >> >> > >> As the Ham-ster
> would say
> >> "nuff
> >> >> >> said."
> >> >> >> > >>
> >> >> >> > >> g
> >> >> >> > >>
> >> >> >> > >> ----- Original
> Message
> >> ----- From:
> >> >> >> "Garrett
> >> >> >> > >> Clevenger"
> >> >> <garrettmc at verizon.net>
> >> >> >> > >> To:
> >> <vision2020 at moscow.com>;
> >> >> "g.
> >> >> >> crabtree"
> >> >> >> > >>
> >> <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> >> >> >> > >> Sent: Saturday,
> February
> >> 21, 2009
> >> >> 7:53 PM
> >> >> >> > >> Subject: Re:
> [Vision2020]
> >> Humane
> >> >> >> interrogations work
> >> >> >> > >>
> >> >> >> > >>
> >> >> >> > >> > I don't
> condone
> >> the violent
> >> >> acts you
> >> >> >> mention,
> >> >> >> > >> either, whether
> committed
> >> by suicide
> >> >> bombers,
> >> >> >> alleged
> >> >> >> > >> hijackers, or the
> powers
> >> that be
> >> >> that distort
> >> >> >> truth for
> >> >> >> > >> their own agenda.
> I imagine
> >> most of
> >> >> these
> >> >> >> acts are
> >> >> >> > >> consequences of
> the
> >> American Empire
> >> >> willing
> >> >> >> to commit the
> >> >> >> > >> same atrocities.
> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> > >> > There may be
> some
> >> imagined
> >> >> slights, but
> >> >> >> there are also
> >> >> >> > >> some very real
> slights.
> >> History is
> >> >> replete
> >> >> >> with examples of
> >> >> >> > >> US policy directly
> >> responsible for
> >> >> killing
> >> >> >> innocents. If
> >> >> >> > >> you're willing
> to
> >> retaliate for
> >> >> feeling
> >> >> >> slighted, why
> >> >> >> > >> wouldn't your
> supposed
> >> enemies,
> >> >> >> who've probably
> >> >> >> > >> witnessed more
> bloodshed
> >> than
> >> >> hopefully
> >> >> >> we'll ever see,
> >> >> >> > >> want vengeance,
> too?
> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> > >> > You're
> probably
> >> aware of
> >> >> the US
> >> >> >> financial and
> >> >> >> > >> military support
> of Saddam
> >> Hussein
> >> >> during the
> >> >> >> 80's. The
> >> >> >> > >> US backed Iraq in
> their war
> >> against
> >> >> Iran,
> >> >> >> where a million or
> >> >> >> > >> so people were
> killed. The
> >> US also
> >> >> knew
> >> >> >> Saddam was gassing
> >> >> >> > >> the Kurds, where,
> guess
> >> what,
> >> >> innocent women,
> >> >> >> children and
> >> >> >> > >> men died of
> chemical
> >> weapons. But
> >> >> apparently,
> >> >> >> the US
> >> >> >> > >> condoned
> Saddam's
> >> actions.
> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> > >> > The Iranians
> suffered
> >> under the
> >> >> Shaw, a
> >> >> >> dictator
> >> >> >> > >> propped up by the
> US. The
> >> Saudis,
> >> >> too, suffer
> >> >> >> under the
> >> >> >> > >> Sauds, who the US
> is
> >> willing to
> >> >> support to
> >> >> >> insure access to
> >> >> >> > >> oil, and military
> bases.
> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> > >> > As for Osama,
> the CIA
> >> trained
> >> >> and paid
> >> >> >> him and his
> >> >> >> > >> muhjadeen during
> the Afghan
> >> war
> >> >> against the
> >> >> >> Soviets. So the
> >> >> >> > >> US is implicated
> in the
> >> deaths they
> >> >> caused
> >> >> >> during that war,
> >> >> >> > >> as well.
> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> > >> > Those are
> only a few
> >> of the
> >> >> reasons some
> >> >> >> people hate
> >> >> >> > >> the US and are
> trying to
> >> bring it
> >> >> down, to
> >> >> >> hold its citizens
> >> >> >> > >> accountable, to
> make us pay
> >> with
> >> >> similar
> >> >> >> heartache. It was
> >> >> >> > >> only a matter of
> time
> >> before all
> >> >> that pent up
> >> >> >> anger would
> >> >> >> > >> make its way to
> the US,
> >> >> unfortunately.
> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> > >> > It seems
> unfair of you
> >> to be
> >> >> upset over
> >> >> >> the deaths of
> >> >> >> > >> Americans, but not
> of other
> >> people
> >> >> who died
> >> >> >> as a result of
> >> >> >> > >> US policy.
> Personally, I
> >> think all
> >> >> of these
> >> >> >> deaths are a
> >> >> >> > >> travesty.
> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> > >> > Nothing exist
> inside a
> >> vacuum.
> >> >> Every
> >> >> >> bomb has a boom.
> >> >> >> > >> Every person who
> is
> >> tortured brings
> >> >> us closer
> >> >> >> to our doom.
> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> > >> > All our
> values will
> >> not save
> >> >> us. All our
> >> >> >> wealth is
> >> >> >> > >> valueless when we
> become
> >> like our
> >> >> enemy and
> >> >> >> sell our souls
> >> >> >> > >> to oppress.
> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> > >> > We live in a
> freer
> >> society than
> >> >> where
> >> >> >> the alleged
> >> >> >> > >> terrorist dwell.
> We have
> >> access to
> >> >> more info,
> >> >> >> and the
> >> >> >> > >> ability to
> dissent. These
> >> other folk
> >> >> have
> >> >> >> seen, and are
> >> >> >> > >> taught, how US
> policy is
> >> >> hypocritical and
> >> >> >> leads to their
> >> >> >> > >> becoming second
> class
> >> citizens. If I
> >> >> lived
> >> >> >> there and lost a
> >> >> >> > >> loved one due to
> the US,
> >> I'd be
> >> >> pretty
> >> >> >> pissed, too. I
> >> >> >> > >> can empathize with
> their
> >> frustration
> >> >> at what
> >> >> >> seems to be
> >> >> >> > >> policy designed to
> enrich
> >> some in
> >> >> the US at
> >> >> >> the expense of
> >> >> >> > >> their well-being.
> I'm
> >> actually
> >> >> surprised
> >> >> >> their isn't
> >> >> >> > >> more retaliation,
> but maybe
> >> >> that's due to
> >> >> >> there being
> >> >> >> > >> more saner heads
> than we
> >> know, or
> >> >> maybe due
> >> >> >> to increased
> >> >> >> > >> security.
> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> > >> > These
> people's
> >> view of
> >> >> history,
> >> >> >> whether accurate
> >> >> >> > >> or not, becomes
> part of
> >> their
> >> >> psyche. I can
> >> >> >> imagine how that
> >> >> >> > >> shapes their
> behavior and
> >> view of
> >> >> the US.
> >> >> >> Since they live in
> >> >> >> > >> a more repressive
> regime,
> >> it's a
> >> >> lot
> >> >> >> harder for them to
> >> >> >> > >> break the cycle of
> hatred
> >> they have
> >> >> towards
> >> >> >> us. Since they
> >> >> >> > >> aren't as
> comfortable,
> >> it's
> >> >> probably
> >> >> >> a lot harder
> >> >> >> > >> for them to keep
> their
> >> cool. Those
> >> >> that are
> >> >> >> more tolerant
> >> >> >> > >> are probably
> ostracized.
> >> The ones
> >> >> who
> >> >> >> retaliate against us
> >> >> >> > >> are revered. Thus,
> natural
> >> selection
> >> >> leads to
> >> >> >> violence
> >> >> >> > >> against the US,
> and
> >> themselves.
> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> > >> > I imagine
> there are
> >> people over
> >> >> there
> >> >> >> like you who
> >> >> >> > >> rally others to
> act
> >> violent. They
> >> >> probably
> >> >> >> say the same
> >> >> >> > >> thing you do, and
> so people
> >> are
> >> >> enlisted into
> >> >> >> what means
> >> >> >> > >> they have of
> retaliation.
> >> If China
> >> >> were
> >> >> >> taking over our
> >> >> >> > >> country with
> military might
> >> instead
> >> >> of
> >> >> >> financially, perhaps
> >> >> >> > >> we'd have more
> freedom
> >> fighters
> >> >> willing
> >> >> >> to kill and die
> >> >> >> > >> to protect our
> homeland,
> >> and
> >> >> we'd have a
> >> >> >> better
> >> >> >> > >> understanding of
> why some
> >> are
> >> >> willing to make
> >> >> >> the ultimate
> >> >> >> > >> sacrifice in what
> they deem
> >> to be
> >> >> defense of
> >> >> >> their country.
> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> > >> > It's only
> natural
> >> to want
> >> >> to protect
> >> >> >> what you
> >> >> >> > >> love. It's
> natural to
> >> want to
> >> >> retaliate.
> >> >> >> > >> > It makes
> perfect sense
> >> to me
> >> >> that
> >> >> >> violence begets
> >> >> >> > >> violence. We send
> our
> >> soldiers
> >> >> there, who
> >> >> >> bomb and kill
> >> >> >> > >> innocent people,
> which then
> >> leads to
> >> >> pissed
> >> >> >> off people who
> >> >> >> > >> want to bomb us
> back. But
> >> that
> >> >> doesn't it
> >> >> >> make it right,
> >> >> >> > >> or in our best
> interest. It
> >> just
> >> >> makes it
> >> >> >> look like
> >> >> >> > >> we're
> barbarians.
> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> > >> > The war of
> terror the
> >> US is
> >> >> engaged in
> >> >> >> only seems to
> >> >> >> > >> promote further
> violence,
> >> which
> >> >> means the war
> >> >> >> of terror
> >> >> >> > >> needs more money
> and troops
> >> to fight
> >> >> that
> >> >> >> violence. It's
> >> >> >> > >> absurd to think we
> can keep
> >> killing,
> >> >> >> torturing and bombing
> >> >> >> > >> our way out of
> this mess,
> >> especially
> >> >> >> considering there is
> >> >> >> > >> historical
> justification
> >> for people
> >> >> to be mad
> >> >> >> at us for us
> >> >> >> > >> letting our
> government
> >> commit
> >> >> violence.
> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> > >> > By letting
> them use
> >> our tax
> >> >> dollars,
> >> >> >> like it or not,
> >> >> >> > >> we are guilty of
> killing
> >> people, and
> >> >> thus,
> >> >> >> there really are
> >> >> >> > >> no innocent
> people, unless
> >> you are
> >> >> protesting
> >> >> >> and not paying
> >> >> >> > >> taxes. Since we
> are freer,
> >> we're
> >> >> actually
> >> >> >> more guilty
> >> >> >> > >> than those in more
> >> repressive
> >> >> regimes who
> >> >> >> have no means of
> >> >> >> > >> deposing of their
> >> government. We do
> >> >> not have
> >> >> >> to be pawns in
> >> >> >> > >> the US empire. We
> do not
> >> have to let
> >> >> them
> >> >> >> engage our
> >> >> >> > >> military in
> foreign
> >> excursions that
> >> >> quite
> >> >> >> obviously are
> >> >> >> > >> mostly intended to
> secure
> >> oil
> >> >> reserves.
> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> > >> > We've
> spent
> >> hundreds of
> >> >> billions of
> >> >> >> dollars, lost
> >> >> >> > >> more Americans
> than who
> >> died during
> >> >> the 911
> >> >> >> strikes, and
> >> >> >> > >> killed many, many
> tens of
> >> thousands
> >> >> of
> >> >> >> innocent people in
> >> >> >> > >> our desire for
> vengeance.
> >> For what?
> >> >> More
> >> >> >> hatred towards us,
> >> >> >> > >> more loss of
> lives, and
> >> more
> >> >> indebtedness to
> >> >> >> fund this
> >> >> >> > >> folly.
> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> > >> > I'm able
> to
> >> condemn all
> >> >> these acts
> >> >> >> of violence as
> >> >> >> > >> the same evil they
> are:
> >> willing to
> >> >> kill for
> >> >> >> > >>
> self-righteousness.
> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> > >> > Admittedly,
> at this
> >> point,
> >> >> there is no
> >> >> >> easy solution.
> >> >> >> > >> Considering we
> have a hard
> >> time
> >> >> treating our
> >> >> >> own with
> >> >> >> > >> respect amongst
> our
> >> different
> >> >> viewpoints,
> >> >> >> perhaps we're
> >> >> >> > >> condemned to live
> in this
> >> hell. We
> >> >> all are
> >> >> >> animals
> >> >> >> > >> essentially
> controlled by
> >> our
> >> >> emotions. Our
> >> >> >> higher being is
> >> >> >> > >> smothered by those
> who want
> >> to lash
> >> >> out. We
> >> >> >> all have these
> >> >> >> > >> feelings, but we
> all can be
> >> redeemed
> >> >> if
> >> >> >> we're courageous
> >> >> >> > >> enough to stand up
> to the
> >> powers
> >> >> that be and
> >> >> >> say,
> >> >> >> > >>
> "Enough!"
> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> > >> > For starters
> though,
> >> we need to
> >> >> reign in
> >> >> >> the American
> >> >> >> > >> empire. We need to
> hold
> >> Israel
> >> >> accountable
> >> >> >> for it's
> >> >> >> > >> double standards
> against
> >> the
> >> >> Palestinians. We
> >> >> >> need to stop
> >> >> >> > >> supporting
> repressive
> >> regimes. We
> >> >> need to
> >> >> >> have compassionate
> >> >> >> > >> policy that treats
> all
> >> Earthlings
> >> >> with
> >> >> >> respect. We need to
> >> >> >> > >> take the higher
> ground and
> >> say,
> >> >> >> "Sorry."
> >> >> >> > >> Reconciliation may
> sound
> >> cheesy, but
> >> >> it goes
> >> >> >> a long way in
> >> >> >> > >> leading to
> forgiveness for
> >> our
> >> >> trespasses.
> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> > >> > The other
> alternative
> >> is to
> >> >> keep digging
> >> >> >> ourselves in
> >> >> >> > >> this hole of
> hatred, which
> >> will lead
> >> >> to
> >> >> >> further acts that
> >> >> >> > >> we'll feel
> we'll
> >> need to
> >> >> retaliate
> >> >> >> against, ad
> >> >> >> > >> nauseam.
> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> > >> > Corrosive
> cynicism
> >> warmongers
> >> >> display
> >> >> >> certainly
> >> >> >> > >> isn't the
> answer.
> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> > >> > Sorry for the
> book.
> >> This
> >> >> definitely
> >> >> >> became longer than
> >> >> >> > >> intended...
> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> > >> > Peace,
> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> > >> > gclev
> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> > >> > --- On Sat,
> 2/21/09,
> >> g.
> >> >> crabtree
> >> >> >> > >>
> >> <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> > >> >> From: g.
> crabtree
> >> >> >> <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> >> >> >> > >> >> Subject:
> Re:
> >> [Vision2020]
> >> >> Humane
> >> >> >> interrogations
> >> >> >> > >> work
> >> >> >> > >> >> To:
> >> garrettmc at verizon.net,
> >> >> >> vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> >> >> > >> >> Date:
> Saturday,
> >> February
> >> >> 21, 2009,
> >> >> >> 3:21 PM
> >> >> >> > >> >>
> "Let's
> >> assume for
> >> >> a moment
> >> >> >> that
> >> >> >> > >> terrorists are not
> >> >> >> > >> >>
> cockroaches, but
> >> humans who
> >> >> like you
> >> >> >> and I have
> >> >> >> > >> the same
> >> >> >> > >> >> emotions
> of
> >> bitterness,
> >> >> anger and
> >> >> >> desire to
> >> >> >> > >> retaliate."
> >> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> >> > >> >> Retaliate
> for
> >> what? Sorry,
> >> >> but I
> >> >> >> can't even
> >> >> >> > >> begin to
> >> >> >> > >> >> imagine
> flying
> >> jumbo jets
> >> >> into
> >> >> >> buildings full of
> >> >> >> > >> innocents
> >> >> >> > >> >> or
> strapping on a
> >> bomb and
> >> >> going out
> >> >> >> and
> >> >> >> > >> deliberately
> >> >> >> > >> >> killing
> women and
> >> children
> >> >> most of
> >> >> >> whom are my own
> >> >> >> > >> >>
> countrymen.
> >> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> >> > >> >> "Why
> do you
> >> think
> >> >> these people
> >> >> >> would commit
> >> >> >> > >> such
> >> >> >> > >> >> dastardly
> deeds,
> >> willing to
> >> >> kill
> >> >> >> other people?
> >> >> >> > >> What
> >> >> >> > >> >> specifics
> would
> >> drive these
> >> >> people
> >> >> >> to act
> >> >> >> > >> so?"
> >> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> >> > >> >> According
> to Osama
> >> >> Bin-Laden, the
> >> >> >> justification to
> >> >> >> > >> murder
> >> >> >> > >> >> nearly
> 3000
> >> innocent men,
> >> >> women, and
> >> >> >> children was
> >> >> >> > >> that after
> >> >> >> > >> >> the first
> gulf war
> >> we were
> >> >> not quick
> >> >> >> enough in
> >> >> >> > >> removing all
> >> >> >> > >> >> of our
> troops from
> >> Saudi
> >> >> Arabia to
> >> >> >> suit his
> >> >> >> > >> tastes. Never
> >> >> >> > >> >> mind that
> the
> >> Saudi
> >> >> government had
> >> >> >> made no request
> >> >> >> > >> for us to
> >> >> >> > >> >> speed up
> the rate
> >> at which
> >> >> our
> >> >> >> forces were to pull
> >> >> >> > >> out. To
> >> >> >> > >> >> the
> contrary, they
> >> were
> >> >> rather
> >> >> >> pleased to have us
> >> >> >> > >> in country
> >> >> >> > >> >> in the
> short term.
> >> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> >> > >> >> Also, he
> was
> >> miffed with
> >> >> our support
> >> >> >> for Israel,
> >> >> >> > >> totally
> >> >> >> > >> >> ignoring
> the fact
> >> that
> >> >> along with
> >> >> >> the aid we send
> >> >> >> > >> to that
> >> >> >> > >> >> country,
> we also
> >> spend
> >> >> billions in
> >> >> >> aid to Syria,
> >> >> >> > >> Jordan,
> >> >> >> > >> >> Egypt,
> Lebanon,
> >> >> Afghanistan, and
> >> >> >> Saudi Arabia.
> >> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> >> > >> >> As you
> can see, I
> >> am rather
> >> >> at a
> >> >> >> loss. Please feel
> >> >> >> > >> free to
> >> >> >> > >> >> jump in
> and
> >> enlighten me as
> >> >> to why
> >> >> >> we were so
> >> >> >> > >> richly
> >> >> >> > >> >> deserving
> of
> >> radical muslim
> >> >> hatred
> >> >> >> and how the
> >> >> >> > >> losses we
> >> >> >> > >> >> sustained
> on 9/11
> >> could be
> >> >> justified
> >> >> >> as simple pay
> >> >> >> > >> back for
> >> >> >> > >> >> our
> misdeeds. What
> >> is it
> >> >> that you
> >> >> >> imagine we might
> >> >> >> > >> do that
> >> >> >> > >> >> would
> sooth these
> >> peoples
> >> >> imagined
> >> >> >> slights?
> >> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> >> > >> >> g
> >> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> >> > >> >> -----
> Original
> >> Message
> >> >> ----- From:
> >> >> >> "Garrett
> >> >> >> > >> Clevenger"
> >> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> <garrettmc at verizon.net>
> >> >> >> > >> >> To:
> >> >> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> >> >> > >> >> Sent:
> Saturday,
> >> February
> >> >> 21, 2009
> >> >> >> 11:11 AM
> >> >> >> > >> >> Subject:
> >> [Vision2020]
> >> >> Humane
> >> >> >> interrogations work
> >> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> >> > >> >> > g,
> >> >> >> > >> >> >
> >> >> >> > >> >> >
> Let's
> >> assume for a
> >> >> moment
> >> >> >> that terrorists
> >> >> >> > >> are not
> >> >> >> > >> >>
> cockroaches, but
> >> humans who
> >> >> like you
> >> >> >> and I have
> >> >> >> > >> the same
> >> >> >> > >> >> emotions
> of
> >> bitterness,
> >> >> anger and
> >> >> >> desire to
> >> >> >> > >> retaliate.
> >> >> >> > >> >> >
> >> >> >> > >> >> > Why
> do you
> >> think these
> >> >> people
> >> >> >> would commit
> >> >> >> > >> such
> >> >> >> > >> >> dastardly
> deeds,
> >> willing to
> >> >> kill
> >> >> >> other people?
> >> >> >> > >> What
> >> >> >> > >> >> specifics
> would
> >> drive these
> >> >> people
> >> >> >> to act so?
> >> >> >> > >> >> >
> >> >> >> > >> >> >
> I'm
> >> asking to see
> >> >> if we
> >> >> >> could reason as
> >> >> >> > >> to why we
> >> >> >> > >> >> live in a
> world
> >> seemingly
> >> >> filled
> >> >> >> with violence due
> >> >> >> > >> to humans
> >> >> >> > >> >> striking
> fellow
> >> humans, so
> >> >> as to
> >> >> >> possibly
> >> >> >> > >> extricate
> >> >> >> > >> >> ourselves
> from
> >> this deadly
> >> >> spiral...
> >> >> >> > >> >> >
> >> >> >> > >> >> >
> gclev
> >> >> >> > >> >> >
> >> >> >> > >> >> >
> >> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> >> > >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> =======================================================
> >> >> >> > >> >> > List
> services
> >> made
> >> >> available by
> >> >> >> First Step
> >> >> >> > >> Internet,
> >> >> >> > >> >> >
> serving the
> >> >> communities of the
> >> >> >> Palouse since
> >> >> >> > >> 1994.
> >> >> >> > >> >> >
> >> >> >> http://www.fsr.net
> >> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> >> > >> >> >
> >> >> >> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> >> >> > >> >> >
> >> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> >> > >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> =======================================================
> >> >> >> > >> >> >
> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> > >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> =======================================================
> >> >> >> >  List services made
> available by
> >> First Step
> >> >> Internet,
> >> >> >> >  serving the communities of
> the
> >> Palouse since
> >> >> 1994.
> >> >> >> >               
> http://www.fsr.net
> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >
> >> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> =======================================================
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >>
> =======================================================
> >> >> > List services made available by
> First Step
> >> Internet,
> >> >> > serving the communities of the
> Palouse since
> >> 1994.
> >> >> >               http://www.fsr.net
> >> >>
> >> >> >         
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >>
> =======================================================
> >> >> >
> >> >
> > 
> >
> =======================================================
> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >               http://www.fsr.net
> >          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >
> =======================================================
> > 
> > 
> > -- No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG.
> > Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1967 -
> Release Date: 2/23/2009 7:17 AM
> >