[Vision2020] DARE to speak the truth
Tom Hansen
thansen at moscow.com
Tue Feb 24 13:57:59 PST 2009
Very good point, Bill.
DARE, although well intentioned, is as effective as Nancy reagan's "Just
Say No" campaign.
It kinda reminds me of an old quote from a war movie. A general and his
staff was sitting in the command seats during a Pass in Review by the
troops. The troops looked hot, all spit-and-polish, dress-right-dress,
etc. etc. The generall looks over the troops and suggests to his
staff . . .
"They look good. But can they shoot?"
Hmmm.
Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho
Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho
> DARE, like abstinence-only sex education, sounds great to older,
> conservative voters.....but the real question is ... do these programs
work?
> Do young people respond to these messages and alter their behavior?
> The answer now, after years of effort and years of study, is nope.
> BL
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "lfalen" <lfalen at turbonet.com>
> To: "Warren Hayman" <whayman at roadrunner.com>; "Sue Hovey"
> <suehovey at moscow.com>; <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>;
> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 1:03 PM
> Subject: [Vision2020] [Spam 5.59] Re: Subject change to "Was it
Necessary
> toUse theAtomicBombs on Japan?" Former title Presidential Rankings
>
>
> > D.A.R.E is a good program. The idea behind it is to say no to a dare.
> > Roger
> > -----Original message-----
> > From: "Warren Hayman" whayman at roadrunner.com
> > Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 19:13:36 -0800
> > To: "lfalen" lfalen at turbonet.com, "Sue Hovey" suehovey at moscow.com,
> > donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com, vision2020 at moscow.com
> > Subject: [Spam 5.59] Re: [Vision2020] Subject change to "Was it
Necessary
> > to Use theAtomicBombs on Japan?" Former title Presidential Rankings
> >
> >> So we can get rid of the DARE program in the school district? Great
idea!
> >>
> >> Warren Hayman
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "lfalen" <lfalen at turbonet.com>
> >> To: "Sue Hovey" <suehovey at moscow.com>; <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>;
> >> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 12:34 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Subject change to "Was it Necessary to Use
> >> theAtomicBombs on Japan?" Former title Presidential Rankings
> >>
> >>
> >> > Sue
> >> > The mentality behind issuing a dare is harmful, just as is the
> >> > mentality
> >> > of casting shame on being an snitch, or stoolie. A dare is a
challenge
> >> > to
> >> > some ones bravery, like you are a coward if you don't accept. This
can
> >> > get
> >> > kids in a lot of trouble and should be something teachers are
fighting
> >> > against. In reality rejecting a dare takes more courage than
accepting
> >> > one.
> >> > Roger
> >> > -----Original message-----
> >> > From: "Sue Hovey" suehovey at moscow.com
> >> > Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 01:03:25 -0800
> >> > To: "lfalen" lfalen at turbonet.com, donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com,
> >> > vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Subject change to "Was it Necessary to
Use
> >> > the
> >> > AtomicBombs on Japan?" Former title Presidential Rankings
> >> >
> >> >> I sent this to Donovan. I didn't dare you to do anything....I
don't
> >> >> care
> >> >> whether you read Hershey's book or not...And why, pray tell, is it
> >> >> shameful
> >> >> for me to issue a dare to him? Are your standards for teachers
> >> >> somewhat
> >> >> more skewed than for other such ordinary folk? He didn't respond
> >> >> anyway,
> >> >> so
> >> >> we'll never know whether he decided to read it. And the word is
> >> >> bearing.....
> >> >>
> >> >> Sue H.
> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> From: "lfalen" <lfalen at turbonet.com>
> >> >> To: "Sue Hovey" <suehovey at moscow.com>;
<donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>;
> >> >> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> >> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 9:50 AM
> >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Subject change to "Was it Necessary to
Use
> >> >> the
> >> >> AtomicBombs on Japan?" Former title Presidential Rankings
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > Shame on you Sue as a teacher for issuing a dare. I may or may
not
> >> >> > read
> >> >> > Hershey's book. A dare would have absolutely no baring on it.
> >> >> > Roger
> >> >> > -----Original message-----
> >> >> > From: "Sue Hovey" suehovey at moscow.com
> >> >> > Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 02:12:03 -0800
> >> >> > To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com, vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> >> > Subject: [Vision2020] Subject change to "Was it Necessary to Use
the
> >> >> > AtomicBombs on Japan?" Former title Presidential Rankings
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> 1. I agree, it did end the war quickly--in a matter of days.
> >> >> >> 2. And if the bombs hadn't been dropped, how much less intact
> >> >> >> would
> >> >> >> have
> >> >> >> Japan been on Sep 1, 1945?
> >> >> >> 3. It did that. And we had committed to the goal of
unconditional
> >> >> >> surrender.
> >> >> >> 4. No, no, no....it did not.
> >> >> >> 5. But they didn't back out of Germany....And they were already
> >> >> >> developing nuclear weapons.
> >> >> >> 6. Well you got me there & I was living in Texas then, but
Bentson
> >> >> >> wasn't the U.S. Senator from Texas until quite a bit later, so I
> >> >> >> really
> >> >> >> don't believe this happened. During the Korean war I think our
> >> >> >> senators
> >> >> >> were LBJ and Tom Connally.
> >> >> >> 7. Maybe so, maybe not.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Go ahead and read Hershey's book. I double dare you. You may
not
> >> >> >> be
> >> >> >> convinced, but you will have another perspective to chew on.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Sue H.
> >> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> >> From: Donovan Arnold
> >> >> >> To: vision2020 at moscow.com ; Sue Hovey
> >> >> >> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 8:45 PM
> >> >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Presidential Rankings (2009)
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Sue,
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> It was necessary to drop the bomb for several reasons.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> 1) It brought a quick end to the war
> >> >> >> 2) It kept the rest of Japan intact
> >> >> >> 3) It gave us an unconditional surrender, which is what
the
> >> >> >> Allies swore to do
> >> >> >> 4) It limited Casualties on both sides of the war
> >> >> >> 5) It showed Russia that we have the bomb, and will use
it,
> >> >> >> so
> >> >> >> back out of Germany and Western Europe.
> >> >> >> 6) The aftermath of the A-Bomb, its horrible impact on
> >> >> >> people,
> >> >> >> helped Senator Benston-D Texas, convince the Senate to block
> >> >> >> General
> >> >> >> MacArthur's attempts to end the Korean War by dropping 50 A-
Bombs
> >> >> >> on
> >> >> >> China.
> >> >> >> 7) It has prevented anyone from using a nuclear bomb
again
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> So, I have read the arguments. I don't think your
friend,
> >> >> >> Hershey, had any greater insight than Truman or his advisers.
> >> >> >> Hershey
> >> >> >> was
> >> >> >> just 31, Truman was President, he had more information and a
bigger
> >> >> >> picture of the issues at the time.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> The consequences of not dropping the bomb would have
been
> >> >> >> worse.
> >> >> >> Hard to believe, but it would have been.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Best Regards,
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Donovan
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> --- On Thu, 2/19/09, Sue Hovey <suehovey at moscow.com>
wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> From: Sue Hovey <suehovey at moscow.com>
> >> >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Presidential Rankings (2009)
> >> >> >> To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com,
vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> >> >> Date: Thursday, February 19, 2009, 8:10 PM
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Donovan,
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> For an interesting and opposing view, you might take
a
> >> >> >> look
> >> >> >> at
> >> >> >> John Hershey's Hiroshima, the Aftermath, published in the
1980s.
> >> >> >> It's
> >> >> >> one thing to have had to make that call, as Truman did, for a
> >> >> >> nation
> >> >> >> weary of war, and quite another to quote as fact today the idea
> >> >> >> that
> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> dropping of the atom bombs was necessary to save a million
lives.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Sue H.
> >> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> >> From: Donovan Arnold
> >> >> >> To: vision2020 at moscow.com ; Kenneth Marcy
> >> >> >> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 4:27 PM
> >> >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Presidential Rankings
(2009)
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> People that were against the dropping of the
atom
> >> >> >> bombs
> >> >> >> on Japan in WWII were obviously ignorant of the larger number of
> >> >> >> causalities it would have cost both Japan and the US in its
place,
> >> >> >> and
> >> >> >> were insensitive to massive suffering and loss of life that the
US
> >> >> >> and
> >> >> >> others had already endured.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Truman only had two options. 1) To kill one
> >> >> >> million
> >> >> >> more people, both Japanese and Americans, or 2) Kill 100,000
> >> >> >> Japanese
> >> >> >> that started the war and end it.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> To me, the choice is obvious. I am sure
Truman
> >> >> >> would
> >> >> >> have dropped 12 billion roses instead if it ended the war, but
it
> >> >> >> wouldn't, so he did what had to do to end the war. And dropping
the
> >> >> >> bomb
> >> >> >> barely did end the war as Japan still didn't want to surrender
> >> >> >> initially
> >> >> >> after that.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Best Regards.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Donovan
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> --- On Thu, 2/19/09, Kenneth Marcy
> >> >> >> <kmmos1 at verizon.net>
> >> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> From: Kenneth Marcy <kmmos1 at verizon.net>
> >> >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Presidential
Rankings
> >> >> >> (2009)
> >> >> >> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> >> >> Date: Thursday, February 19, 2009, 12:45 PM
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> On Wednesday 18 February 2009 14:03:26 Kai Eiselein wrote:>
Sooooo,
> >> >> >> would
> >> >> >> this apply to those who condemn the use of nuclear bombs on>
> >> >> >> Japan?Yes. I
> >> >> >> think that the Allies, and the Americans specifically, were
> >> >> >> war-weary
> >> >> >> from large social and industrial reorganizations to support a
war
> >> >> >> effort
> >> >> >> then beyond all those previous. The prospect of any necessity of
> >> >> >> taking a
> >> >> >> land war from the Allies into Asia implied such huge additional
> >> >> >> losses
> >> >> >> that any way to end the Nipponese war, and prevent its spread
more
> >> >> >> generally to Asia, was seen as a useful effort.More so than any
> >> >> >> subsequent major conflict, World War II was seen as a just war;
the
> >> >> >> Allied cause was worth winning for good reasons, and all efforts
> >> >> >> toward
> >> >> >> that end were justified.Yes, the atomic destruction was
horrific,
> >> >> >> no
> >> >> >> doubt about it, and on sight of the test blast, the
> >> >> >> decision makers all knew it. Oppenheimer said in New Mexico "I
am
> >> >> >> become
> >> >> >> death." And the chain of command, from Groves upto Marshall and
> >> >> >> then
> >> >> >> to
> >> >> >> Truman, presumably had some idea of the much larger magnitude
of
> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> atom
> >> >> >> bombs, so the decision to use them was in service of ending the
> >> >> >> Nipponese
> >> >> >> war sooner rather than later.> Or the fire bombing of
> >> >> >> Germany?Without
> >> >> >> reviewing the technical details, I will just say that after the
> >> >> >> U.S.
> >> >> >> joined the Allied cause then underway, there was a strong
> >> >> >> determination
> >> >> >> to see the war effort through to a victorious decision. No one
> >> >> >> doubted
> >> >> >> the justness of the Allied cause, nor did anyone doubt that the
> >> >> >> awful
> >> >> >> destruction was beneath the dignified preferences of civil
> >> >> >> societies.
> >> >> >> However, the Axis aggression had to be stopped, and the
prosecution
> >> >> >> of
> >> >> >> the European efforts continued until that goal was reached.
Whether
> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> goal could have been achieved more
> >> >> >> optimally with less destruction was a judgment call; second
> >> >> >> guessing
> >> >> >> and
> >> >> >> arm-chair quarterbacking more than half a century later won't
> >> >> >> change
> >> >> >> their determination then to get the job done with what was
> >> >> >> available.>
> >> >> >> Or, the actions Europeans took in the Americas after stumbling
upon
> >> >> >> the>
> >> >> >> contintents?Considering that Europeans first began attempting
> >> >> >> permanent
> >> >> >> North American settlements centuries ago, it is even more
important
> >> >> >> for
> >> >> >> us not to impose our mind-set on their attitudes and
motivations.
> >> >> >> Some
> >> >> >> of
> >> >> >> the earliest were explorers, somewhat later they were escaping
> >> >> >> religious
> >> >> >> differences. Yes, they had racist attitudes. Yes, they felt
their
> >> >> >> technologies and their old-world civilization gave them a sense
of
> >> >> >> entitlement to what they saw before them. There was no North
> >> >> >> American
> >> >> >> parliament with proportional representation of the indigenous
> >> >> >> peoples,
> >> >> >> and if anyone had been so foolish as
> >> >> >> to suggest one, they would have been laughed, or worse, out of
the
> >> >> >> colony.>From our contemporary understandings we can easily and
> >> >> >> glibly
> >> >> >> say
> >> >> >> that the Europeans should have accepted the natives as human
> >> >> >> equals.
> >> >> >> But
> >> >> >> not all of them were willing to accept the "savages" as fully
> >> >> >> human.
> >> >> >> They
> >> >> >> didnot have the advantage of knowing about Darwinian science,
> >> >> >> Mendelian
> >> >> >> genetics, and contemporary molecular biology that illustrates
our
> >> >> >> closer
> >> >> >> human kinship than their observations of skin color,
physiognomy,
> >> >> >> and
> >> >> >> social culture allowed. Even today not all of us have learned
these
> >> >> >> lessons sufficiently well, so who are we to suggest that those
> >> >> >> early
> >> >> >> colonists were incompletely informed?> After all, there are
those
> >> >> >> who
> >> >> >> do
> >> >> >> the same in those instances.> My comment wasn't so much anti-
war as
> >> >> >> it
> >> >> >> was historical fact. For some> reason Vietnam and Kennedy are
kept
> >> >> >> conspicuously separated in
> >> >> >> history> textbooks, even though Kennedy's actions led the U.S.
> >> >> >> directly
> >> >> >> intothe> Vietnam war.Yes, it is true that many Americans are a
> >> >> >> soft-hearted bunch, preferring polite conversation and gentle
> >> >> >> reminiscences of how nice the Kennedy family looked, how cute
and
> >> >> >> adorable the children were, and on and on. Oh my, wouldn't it
be
> >> >> >> fun
> >> >> >> to
> >> >> >> sail with Jack and the boys, or ride English side-saddle with
> >> >> >> Jackie
> >> >> >> and
> >> >> >> the ladies? How wonderful we could feel about ourselves,
> >> >> >> fantasizing
> >> >> >> ourselves into a far-away Camelot!As the older generations fade
> >> >> >> into
> >> >> >> memory, younger generations of historians will probably have
> >> >> >> sharper
> >> >> >> things to say about how close we came to a Soviet American war
near
> >> >> >> Cuba,
> >> >> >> and how lucky we were for back-channel communication between the
> >> >> >> nonagenarian English Lord Russell and Nikita Khrushchev, and
some
> >> >> >> other
> >> >> >> fortunate military command communications incidents that
> >> >> >> forestalled active engagement.> On another note, it was
Kennedy
> >> >> >> who
> >> >> >> signed legislation allowing U.S.> companies to set up shop in
> >> >> >> foriegn
> >> >> >> countries without having to pay U.S.> income taxes on their
profits
> >> >> >> from
> >> >> >> those units. The idea was that by> bringing jobs into countries
> >> >> >> that
> >> >> >> were
> >> >> >> at risk of falling to the commies,> it would make communism less
> >> >> >> appealing. It was a logical move.There probably were multiple
> >> >> >> reasons
> >> >> >> for
> >> >> >> allowing tax-free foreign commerce by American organizations.
> >> >> >> Profits
> >> >> >> likely were a part of it, as was the opportunity to extend the
de
> >> >> >> facto
> >> >> >> American intelligence network abroad, but outside of the usual
> >> >> >> military
> >> >> >> and diplomatic channels. And I would not be surprised to learn
that
> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> administration found it convenient to allow certain
organizations
> >> >> >> to
> >> >> >> operate profitably without any necessity for their books to be
> >> >> >> examined
> >> >> >> by anyone in an official sphere. The
> >> >> >> darker corners of commercial activity can benefit more than
just
> >> >> >> capitalists, as many have noted since then.> Unfortunately, an
> >> >> >> unintended
> >> >> >> consequence has been the wholesale migration> of U.S. companies
> >> >> >> abroad.Companies have been operating for profit internationally
> >> >> >> since
> >> >> >> ancient trading times, so international business is nothing new.
> >> >> >> Consequences, unintended or not, can be changed if the courage
and
> >> >> >> collective will are marshalled to change laws and behaviors to
more
> >> >> >> desirable patterns. This is a question of needed leadership,
not of
> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> horses irrevocably having escaped the barn.> How much howling
from
> >> >> >> big
> >> >> >> biz do you think there would be if the law was> repealed and
they
> >> >> >> had
> >> >> >> to
> >> >> >> pay taxes on their foreign income?How much howling is there
over
> >> >> >> any
> >> >> >> contentious tax issue? Capital gains, for example? Too often,
the
> >> >> >> lobbyists and the committee chairmen decide their
> >> >> >> answer, and that's that. Powerless citizens may howl all they
> >> >> >> wish,
> >> >> >> to
> >> >> >> little avail. Powerful interests need not howl at all; they pay
> >> >> >> their
> >> >> >> agents and their will is carried out via gallons of ink printed
on
> >> >> >> paper
> >> >> >> mountains.Fundamental tax reform, as opposed to rearrangement of
> >> >> >> regulations, is relatively rare in the United States. For
example,
> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> US
> >> >> >> does not have a national property tax on large holdings of
private
> >> >> >> property, specifically land. Why do not corporations and
> >> >> >> individuals
> >> >> >> who
> >> >> >> own millions of acres of land pay no federal property taxes on
> >> >> >> those
> >> >> >> large holdings? Exemptions for a few thousand acres of actively
> >> >> >> farmed,
> >> >> >> or recently fallowed, land could easily be arranged, so working
> >> >> >> farm
> >> >> >> families would be exempted. So, for the remaining land
hoarders,
> >> >> >> why
> >> >> >> should they not pay some small rate of property tax to help
offset
> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> government expenses of their national defense and liberties
> >> >> >> preservation? Jefferson bought the Louisiana Purchase from the
> >> >> >> French
> >> >> >> to
> >> >> >> enlarge the United States. Don't we all have an obligation to
> >> >> >> periodically re-examine who owns what land, and to re-evaluate
how
> >> >> >> to
> >> >> >> keep that land optimally productive, financially and
> >> >> >> environmentally?
Ken=======================================================
> >> >> >> List services made available by First Step Internet, serving
the
> >> >> >> communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> >> >> http://www.fsr.net
> >> >> >>
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com===============================================
========
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------
----
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
=======================================================
> >> >> >> List services made available by First Step
Internet,
> >> >> >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> >> >> http://www.fsr.net
> >> >> >> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> >> >>
=======================================================
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > =======================================================
> >> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> > http://www.fsr.net
> >> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> > =======================================================
> >>
> >
> > =======================================================
> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > http://www.fsr.net
> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > =======================================================
> >
> >
>
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
>
"For a lapsed Lutheran born-again Buddhist pan-Humanist Universalist
Unitarian Wiccan Agnostic like myself there's really no reason ever to go
to work."
- Roy Zimmerman
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