[Vision2020] Farming/ was Sen Schroeder

[Garrett Clevenger]

Donovan,

While I agree we see things differently, I think you are misunderstanding me. I don't believe I'm telling people what to do, merely pointing out that there are alternatives. It's unfair for to suggest that I'm demeaning everyone who chooses not to farm. While I may seem intense in my comments to v2020, I'm actually a pretty easy-going and tolerant person, believe it or not.

>From the way I see it, we cannot "grow" the way we are growing forever. Eventually we'll run out of resources or pollute the planet. While that may seem like we'll have to resort to a past lifestyle, it doesn't mean we have to have a past mindset, which is what seems to be driving this insatiable consumption. There are ways to live that are both modern and light.

I'm not saying everybody should grow their own food, etc, but that they should support with their $$$ those goods which have less of an impact on the planet we all share. Obviously there are professions that are critical to all our well-being.

We are bright enough to see the bigger picture. We don't need to be heading down the path we seem to be on. We've been able to create amazing technologies, many of which I utilize and appreciate, perhaps hypocritically. It only seems logical that we'd be able to create a more sustainable economy.

If politicians are promoting policies that seem detrimental to our well-being, I will strongly stand up against them. The powers that be will get away with greedy decisions if people don't tell them to stop. I believe the Hawkins deal, and the water bill that just passed, fit that description.

I agree I don't have a right to tell people where or how to live. But I do have a right to suggest that if they are unhappy with their current circumstances, perhaps there are places where they'd be more content. That seems like what community, and communication, should be about.

The fact is, we don't live in a big city, and it seems unreasonable to expect to have the same amenities that city folk enjoy, including unlimited shopping opportunities. It seems just as unfair for you to want to drastically alter this community by promoting Hawkins as you may seem it's unfair for me to not want it built. It's all a matter of perspective.

As for the 1 to 2 percent figure for the water Hawkins will use, that number comes straight from the water department. 65,000 acre feet per year. I didn't make that up.

Take care,

Garrett


--- On Thu, 2/19/09, Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Farming/ was Sen Schroeder
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com, garrettmc at verizon.net
> Date: Thursday, February 19, 2009, 7:58 PM
> Garrett,
> 
> I guess we just see things differently. While I do agree we
> need to me more environmentally conscious, and we need to
> have a sound economy, I don't agree that your way of
> reversing us to the past by everyone growing everything
> locally is the best way to do things. 
> 
> I think farming is great, but I don't think it is
> something everyone has to do, and I don't think it is
> beneficial to society as a whole, or locally, if doctors,
> nurses, mechanics, newspaper personal, sales people,
> insurance people, bankers, all spend more time away from
> what they do best to address a basic need that others can do
> some much better, grow food. I for one, cannot even keep a
> cactus alive. 
> 
> Diversity of jobs is what has contributed so much to
> society. Yes, it does have a down side. But I would rather
> have a strong diverse economy that can help solve a lot of
> the problems society has, especially medical ones. 
> 
> You are young and healthy. But you might appreciate a heart
> transplant, or a better engineered wheelchair, as the result
> of that economic progress. All of your advanced fuel cars,
> eco friendly products were designed by economic prowess, not
> weakness. 
> 
> More importantly, I also don't think you have a right
> to tell people to leave Moscow if they want a mall that has
> supplies that they need or at a cheaper cost to make their
> lives better. Some people cannot even leave Moscow. They
> don't have the money, they have family or friends to
> take of, they have personal responisibilities, they own a
> home, their job is here, etc. To tell people they need to
> move to LA or to a bigger city to get they supplies they
> need at an affortable cost, I think is not something any
> person can claim they must do. 
> 
> I also disagree with your assesment that the mall will take
> 1% of Moscow's water. It could even reduce it. 
> 
> You have the right to live as you want to live. And I
> support you in your efforts to grow all your own food, live
> off the land, fish with your bare hands or a pointy stick,
> only walk or ride a bike, make your own clothes, try to make
> people more environmentailly aware and respectful of the
> Earth, etc. But I don't think you have a right to demand
> and force others to live as you want or wish to live, or say
> they should just leave if they don't like it. I
> don't think that is fair, Garrett. I also think it goes
> against your good natured heart. 
> 
> Thanks for the conversation, and listening to my side of
> the issue. 
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Donovan
> 
> --- On Thu, 2/19/09, Garrett Clevenger
> <garrettmc at verizon.net> wrote:
> From: Garrett Clevenger <garrettmc at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Farming/ was Sen Schroeder
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com, donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
> Date: Thursday, February 19, 2009, 6:29 PM
> 
> Donovan,
> 
> Sorry to cause confusion. My antipathy towards Hawkins and
> my promotion of
> sustainable farming is consistent with my view that we are
> responsible for the
> future we create, and that future should be one of wise use
> of resources so that
> our grand kids aren't paying for our mistakes.
> 
> Perhaps I'm biased and only want to protect my
> industry, and see Hawkins as
> a threat to that. However, I believe your view that our
> local water is near
> limitless is wrong. The fact that the aquifer is dropping a
> foot and a half a
> year should make everyone concerned about how much water is
> actually accessible,
> and about how we use that water.
> 
> Water is a necessity and should not be squandered. The fact
> that Hawkins will
> be using 1 to 2 percent of Moscow's current water use
> seems highly
> extravagant, just to build a mega-mall, especially
> considering we could be using
> that water for another necessity, food.
> 
> One of the biggest impacts we have is how we get food. Do
> you grow it using
> synthetic chemicals? Do you have to transport it halfway
> around the planet?
> Since everybody has to eat, one of the biggest ways to
> reduce our impact is to
> buy food grown that has the least impact as possible, ie
> buy local organically
> grown food. Everybody can make that choice, but the
> limiting factor is supply.
> 
> You increase the supply, the cost goes down, like you state
> for Hawkins.
> Perhaps they will have lower prices than currently found in
> the area. But the
> opportunity costs associated with building this mega-mall
> seems worth
> considering if using this land and water just to save a few
> bucks here and there
> is the best use of resources. Also, considering the
> unraveling of our economy,
> now is an ideal time to insure we are creating a
> sustainable future.
> 
> As a business owner, I realize Hawkins may help facilitate
> 3rd parties to
> create wealth. But that's different than directly
> creating wealth compared
> with industries that actually produces a tangible asset. I
> doubt, though, that
> most things bought at Hawkins will be used in that regard.
> More than likely, it
> will be households buying things for their own personal
> consumption.
> 
> The way things are today, if you need something, you can
> order it on-line and
> have it delivered. Business don't need to have Hawkins
> in order to survive.
> I am not anti-growth or anti-business, but I do think we
> need to be realistic
> about the types of ventures we can sustain. 
> 
> I never said I want to produce jobs that don't use
> water as you state I
> did. I believe a sustainable future is dependent on
> creating vibrant local
> economies, ones that produces as many of the commodities
> consumed in the region
> as possible. Obviously that takes water. If Hawkins is
> promoting that
> philosophy, more power to them, but I don't think that
> is their intent.
> 
> If people really want the amenities of a city, they should
> move to a city,
> rather than expect the rest of us to subsidize the
> development of an out of
> scale mega-mall.
> 
> I grew up in LA, and chose to settle down in a small town
> to get away from the
> hustle and bustle of the concrete jungle. So I also see
> Hawkins as a threat to
> the quality of life the Palouse has to offer. I don't
> need the things you
> list to survive or make me happy. In fact, being flooded
> with them only makes me
> frustrated, especially knowing that they are a symbol of
> unsustainable
> consumerism that threatens our grand kids future.
> 
> Thanks for reading and take care,
> 
> Garrett
> 
> 
> --- On Wed, 2/18/09, Donovan Arnold
> <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> > From: Donovan Arnold
> <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Farming/ was Sen Schroeder
> > To: vision2020 at moscow.com, garrettmc at verizon.net
> > Date: Wednesday, February 18, 2009, 7:35 PM
> > Garrett,
> > 
> > You are confusing to me. If you want to produce jobs
> that
> > don't use water, growing crops that use lots of
> water
> > instead of very little seems like it will have an
> opposite
> > effect. 
> > 
> > If you believe we have a limited water supply, then
> the
> > farms you are talking about will also be
> unsustainable. 
> > 
> >  It makes more economical sense to grow the crops
> here
> > that are easy to grow, sell them on the market, and
> then buy
> > at the supermarket the crops we cannot grow cheaply or
> that
> > would consume our limited supply of water. 
> > 
> > I disagree that retail stores don't produce
> wealth.
> > Retail stores are distribution centers. Distribution
> is a
> > necessary step in the production and use of all
> services and
> > goods. Retail stores not only allows people to find
> the
> > goods and services they need, so they don't have
> to go
> > to all the different states and China to get what they
> need,
> > but it also eliminates waste by determining how many
> of an
> > item is needed. This way we don't send too many
> pairs of
> > jeans to Lewiston and not enough shoes to Moscow. 
> > 
> > Second, these retail stores provide services that
> others
> > need to run their businesses. Any hunting guide needs
> > outdoor supplies. A restaurant needs food, plates, and
> other
> > services. Businesses need paper, notebooks, and office
> > supplies. All of these things are provided by retail
> > services. 
> > 
> > You ask what we don't have in Moscow. We actually
> have
> > very little in terms of what is actually possible to
> have.
> > And what we do have is limited in quantity and the
> price is
> > higher as well. The fewer of an item you have, the
> more it
> > costs, and the more it costs the less wealth you have
> to buy
> > what you need.
> > 
> > Can you find these items in Moscow, Garrett?
> > 
> > A 2001 Viper 
> > A inflatable bath pillow for $1 or less
> > A brand-new 42 inch 1080p Flatscreen television for
> under
> > $650?
> > A Loon Lake by Scotty Coffee Cup
> > A 2 liter Diet Mountain Dew bottle for less than a $1?
> > How about a Spiderman reversible jacket with four
> pocket on
> > the outside and one on the inside and a hoody?
> > 
> > I bet you cannot find those in Moscow, but can find in
> many
> > of cities.
> > 
> > You also have to look at diversity. Your suggestion,
> that
> > we all be farmers, is great if you are capable or good
> at
> > farming. But there would be an awful lot of wasted
> talent if
> > the only thing you had available was farming.
> Diversity of
> > jobs is good. A diverse economy is good. 
> > 
> > Best Regards,
> > 
> > Donovan
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- On Wed, 2/18/09, Garrett Clevenger
> > <garrettmc at verizon.net> wrote:
> > From: Garrett Clevenger <garrettmc at verizon.net>
> > Subject: [Vision2020] Farming/ was Sen Schroeder
> > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > Date: Wednesday, February 18, 2009, 5:38 PM
> > 
> > I should have been clearer about the type of farming
> > I'm advocating.
> > Obviously the Palouse, which has some of the most
> fertile
> > soil in the world, has
> > a lot of large farms, which mostly grow wheat that is
> > mostly exported to join
> > the unsustainable global economy. They don't need
> to
> > irrigate because there
> > is enough precipitation to grow these dry-land crops.
> One
> > person can farm
> > 100's of acres in this type of farming.
> > 
> > On our farm, we grew about 35 crops last summer on a
> > quarter of an acre. This
> > food was consumed locally. Many other crops could be
> grown
> > here, mostly
> > dependent on irrigation. These are higher value crops
> than
> > the larger farmers
> > grow, and it is labor intensive farming.
> > 
> > We will double in size next summer and I will hire a
> worker
> > to help. It's a
> > lot of work, but very rewarding.
> > 
> > If we had $100 million to invest, we'd build
> > greenhouses, and plant
> > orchards, vineyards, berries and hops, among the other
> > veggies we now grow, all
> > of which would be consumed in the region. We
> wouldn't
> > need a miracle crop,
> > only access to water.
> > 
> > If we had the 200 acres Hawkins will gobble up,
> we'd be
> > able to grow a lot
> > more food and provide a lot of jobs which actually
> creates
> > wealth, rather than
> > redistributing it as retail and service does.
> > 
> > Hawkins is a national drain since more than likely
> most of
> > the goods sold
> > won't be made in the US. The money spent at
> Hawkins may
> > fund some jobs, but
> > a significant portion of that money will be shipped
> > overseas to invest in other
> > countries. That is short-sighted.
> > 
> > The only miracle I see needed in this conversation is
> one
> > that will dig us out
> > of the hole our fragmenting economy and ecosystems are
> > leading us into. You can
> > keep dumping trillions of dollars to rescue the
> economy and
> >  keep wasting
> > precious limited resources to build your mega-mall,
> but
> > that is no guarantee our
> > grandchildren will be better off. It seems we're
> > actually leaving more of a
> > mess our insatiable lifestyle is creating for them to
> clean
> > up, which is
> > completely selfish and irresponsible.
> > 
> > I'm curious, what goods will Hawkins offer that
> you
> > can't find
> > elsewhere in Moscow? What will you buy at this
> mega-mall
> > that is so crucial to
> > your well-being? Is that really worth the large
> footprint
> > this mega-mall will
> > create?
> > 
> > Garrett Clevenger
> > 
> >
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