[Vision2020] words and actions (Testosterone Reality Check)

[Joe Campbell]

There is so much confusion here, Paul, it is hard to know where to  
begin. I'll just make a few points.

I never said Crabtree was a racist. In fact, I don't think he is one.  
I said No Weatherman's commments, specifically his subject headings,  
are racist. Crabtree disagrees and maybe you do too. What better way  
to settle the issue than to show people the words and ask their  
opinions? Bring the debate into the light of day, so to speak.

Second I'm not trying to humiliate Crabtree. That won't happen. That  
is some misconception you have based on a misconception of me, no doubt.

Here is the thing. I believe that Crabtree knows full well that the  
subject lines are racist. That's why he won't show or if he does he'll  
try to change the subject to freedom of speech or something like that.  
The real racists won't show and if they do they'll be wearing hoods.

Just having Crabtree read the content of the flyer in a public venue,  
or having him listen to it being read and try to defend those words  
out in the open, will better drive home my side of the dabate than  
anything I can say here. Or so I believe.

I concede some drawbacks with the plan (expressed by you and Sunil)  
but I think that they might be overcome if we're careful not to  
harrass anyone. If no one wants to participate that's just the way it  
is. I'm not going to push it. If Crabtree doesn't show I'm not going  
to give a single flyer to anyone unless they ask for one.

Of course you've had civil discussions with No Weatherman. Take a look  
in the mirror and you'll see why. Maybe his incivility toward others -  
Muslims, gays, women, blacks, liberals - doesn't bother you but it  
bothers me.

Joe Campbell

On Feb 1, 2009, at 10:14 AM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>  
wrote:

> Joe Campbell wrote:
>> Paul,
>>
>> To what extent do liberals have to support "diversity"? To the  
>> extent of racism? Do you think the acceptability of slavery is an  
>> idea I have to sustain in order to remain a true liberal? I don't.
>
> Liberals supporting diversity is an observation, not a commandment.   
> It's a stereotype.  Besides, there is a difference between having to  
> agree with an idea and accepting it as a valid viewpoint.  I haven't  
> seen Gary subscribing to any views that are as rock-solid racist as  
> what you describe.  If I'm remembering correctly, he's complaining  
> that you can't adequately criticize a black President or a star  
> black athlete because you will automatically be assumed to be a  
> racist.  I think, unfortunately, that he has a point.
>
>>
>> Maybe I'm commited to the view that people have the right to say  
>> whatever they want but that includes my right to say when they've  
>> gone too far. All you have to do is look at the subject lines of No  
>> Weatherman's posts in November and October. I think that that went  
>> too far and if you don't please come by Tursday and explain to me  
>> why not.
>
> You do have the right to say what you wish, and so does he.  I'm not  
> claiming anything different, and I wouldn't have the authority to  
> anyway.  I've conversed with No Weatherman, civilly, about a few of  
> those topics.  You run into the same question.  If someone  
> vehemently detests a particular person of color, does that  
> necessarily make them a racist?  It might be a symptom of an  
> underlying feeling of racism, but it might also be a coincidence.   
> Only Gary or No Weatherman could know for sure, and they might be  
> unaware of it themselves.
>
> I grew up far more racist than I like to admit.  I always fought  
> against overt racism, but that didn't change my inherent prejudices  
> until my world expanded and I had occasion to interact with more  
> people outside of my race and cultural background.  The way to fight  
> racism is to mix culturally.  Handing out fliers in a public arena  
> in an attempt to expose a person's prejudices is likely not to work  
> and will probably back-fire on you.
>
>>
>> Again the issue isn't whether one has a right to say such things. I  
>> won't be denying that. But whether the comments in question are  
>> racist. I think they are Crabtree thinks they are not. I'm going to  
>> try to show that he us wrong.
>
> So let's say, just for the sake of argument, that Gary is a card- 
> carrying Racist.  Is exposing him in public really the correct way  
> to help him?  Does it do anything at all helpful for him, or is it  
> just to make you feel like you've won a point?
>>
>> How am I failing according to your standards of what it is to be a  
>> liberal?
>
> If anything, you're failing my standards of what it is to be  
> polite.  Harassing passers-by in order to make a point in public is  
> not polite, nor is trying to publicly expose some you think is racist.
>
> Who am I, anyway?  Do as you like.  I just disagree with it.
>
> Paul
>
>