[Vision2020] Say What?

[Joe Campbell]

Good job, Paul! And this doesn't mean you are incorrect that Gates did  
not make some mistakes. But it's one thing to make a mistake, another  
to abuse a power (as Sunil, Bear and others have noted). There's a  
nice piece in the New York Times op-ed about this. I'll post in a  
second.

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 2, 2009, at 11:30 AM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>  
wrote:

> OK, then.  It does sound like Gates' rights were violated.  Thank you
> for the research.
>
> Paul
>
> Sunil Ramalingam wrote:
>> I mistakenly thought my last post would make it clear that Gates'  
>> acts
>> did not rise to criminal behavior, but I was apparently wrong.  So  
>> let
>> me just cut and paste some annotations from cases dealing with the MA
>> law that he was charged with violating:
>>
>>    Arrest under Massachusetts “idle and disorderly person” stat 
>> ute
>>    was unlawful under Massachusetts law, where defendant was arrested
>>    for yelling, screaming, swearing and generally causing a
>>    disturbance but, though the yelling was undoubtedly loud enough to
>>    attract the attention of other guests in hotel, it did not rise to
>>    level of “riotous commotion” or “public nuisance.” U.S. v.
>>    Pasqualino, D.Mass.1991, 768 F.Supp. 13.
>>
>> And –
>>
>>    Defendant who did not physically resist his arrest arising out of
>>    a domestic violence incident could not be convicted of disorderly
>>    conduct based solely on his loud and angry tirade, which included
>>    profanities, directed at police officers as he was being escorted
>>    to police cruiser, even if spectators gathered to watch defendant;
>>    defendant did not make any threats or engage in violence, and his
>>    speech did not constitute fighting words. Com. v. Mallahan (2008)
>>    72 Mass.App.Ct. 1103, 889 N.E.2d 77, 2008 WL 2404550.
>>
>> And –
>>
>>    Defendant's conduct, namely, flailing his arms and shouting at
>>    police, victim of recent assault, or both, after being told to
>>    leave area by police, did not amount to “violent or tumultuous
>>    behavior” within scope of disorderly conduct statute, absent any
>>    claim that defendant's protestations constituted threat of
>>    violence, or any evidence that defendant's flailing arms were
>>    anything but physical manifestation of his agitation or that noise
>>    and commotion caused by defendant's behavior was extreme. Com. v.
>>    Lopiano (2004) 805 N.E.2d 522, 60 Mass.App.Ct. 723.
>>
>> Here is more from that case:
>>
>>    [Officer] Garrett asked the defendant to exit the vehicle. As the
>>    defendant was getting out of the car, he “kept saying no problem
>>    here, no problem here, everything is all set, no problem.” The
>>    police advised the defendant that he would be summonsed to court
>>    for assault and battery, that he was not to be arrested at
>>    Carins's [the alleged victim] request, and that he had to leave
>>    the motel parking lot. He began to walk away. [Officer] O’Connor
>>    testified: “He took a few steps from me, ten steps, turned arou 
>> nd,
>>    began flailing his arms, yelling that I was violating his civil
>>    rights.” He was advised a second time to leave, and the defend 
>> ant
>>    was “yelling at me, you're violating my civil rights, then he
>>    began yelling at Ms. Carins, why are you doing this to me, you'll
>>    never go through with this.” At that time, he was placed under
>>    arrest. It is not disputed that only the defendant's conduct after
>>    he left the car forms the basis of the disorderly conduct charge.
>>    I won't pretend I have done extensive research on this, as I have
>>    not.  But I think these cases make it pretty clear why Gates' case
>>    was dismissed. I don't think he broke the law at all.
>>
>>    Now, simply because such behavior may be legal, I don't recommend
>>    anyone engage in it. I try to advise people of their rights, but I
>>    always tell them to do so politely. The people with the badges,
>>    guns, and tasers may also be having a bad day, and while the
>>    citizen might eventually be exonerated, the immediate future can
>>    sometimes be quite unpleasant.
>>    As I keep saying in this thread, bad manners are not criminal
>>    offenses. Let me now add, good manners are often more helpful in
>>    these situations
>>
>>    Sunil
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 18:05:43 -0700
>>> From: godshatter at yahoo.com
>>> To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
>>> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Say What?
>>>
>>> It depends upon whether Gates really was violating the law or not.  
>>> Is
>>> refusing to let someone who is technically breaking the law slide
>>> because you are angry an abuse of your power? It's a dick move,  
>>> sure,
>>> but if Gates really was breaking the law then he can't exactly claim
>>> abuse if he's arrested.
>>>
>>> I don't know the specifics of the law he was arrested for. Is it
>>> disorderly conduct when you are on your front porch yelling at  
>>> someone
>>> who is on the public sidewalk? I don't know.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> Sunil Ramalingam wrote:
>>>> As far as I'm concerned, pity has nothing to do with this. The  
>>>> issue
>>>> is the unlawful arrest.
>>>>
>>>> http://volokh.com/posts/1248465451.shtml
>>>>
>>>> Both men let their anger override their judgment, but one had the
>>>> power of the state behind him, and abused it.
>>>>
>>>> Sunil
>>>>
>>
>> --- 
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