[Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations -As ye sow, so shall you
bear at moscow.com
bear at moscow.com
Sat Apr 25 18:55:11 PDT 2009
A good article, with hot links to the various government documents we've been talking
about all
in one place rather than hoping all over the net to find them.
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=4891
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>
> When?
>
> Who decides and on what basis?
>
> Isn't it still illegal?
>
> Sunil
>
> From: jampot at roadrunner.com
> To: godshatter at yahoo.com
> CC: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations -As ye sow, so shall you
> Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 16:00:19 -0700
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Clearly and sadly the sources are credible and
> instances of abuse occurred that shouldn't have however, from my reading
> of the
> Taguba report the personnel of the 800th MP brigade that were abusing the
> prisoners were acting far outside the bounds of official policy and the
> offenders were made to answer for their actions.
>
> I'm not sure what it is about the legal finding
> provided by the DoJ. I'm supposed to find particularly damning. To my eye
i> t
> appears to, among other things, lay out what may or may not be
consider> ed
> torture based on misc. domestic and international case law. Needless to
say> I am
> not an attorney but skipping to the end of the finding in the conclusion
it>
> states:
>
> We further conclude that CAT defines U.S.
> international law obligations with respect to .torture and other cruel,
i> nhuman,
> or degrading treatment or punishment. The standard of conduct regarding
tor> ture
> is the same as that which is found in the torture statute, 18 U.S.C.
> §§·.234D2340A. Moreover, the scope of U.S. obligations under CAT
re> garding
> cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment is limited to
cond> uct
> prohibited by the Eighth, Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments. Customary
> international law does not supply any additional standards.
>
> Seems to me that if you have a problem with the
> definition of torture, It should be taken up with who ever wrote 18
U.S.C> ..
> §§·.234D2340A and not the former administrations justice dept. or
Joh> n
> Yoo.
>
> The FBI report is, for me the most problematic. I
> take some small comfort in the fact that of 493 personnel asked if they
> witnessed abuse only 26 positive responses (none of which rising to the
> level of torture, some not even all that abusive, and at least one
that> did not
> involve American personnel) were received leading me to believe that the
ab> use
> was nowhere near as wide spread as some would have us believe. Any is too
m> uch
> and I'm thankful there wasn't more.
>
> None of this changes my opinion that harsh
> interrogations can sometimes be required. Sorry.
>
> g
>
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>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Rumelhart" <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> Cc: "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>;
> "vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 6:57 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations
> -As ye sow, so shall you
>
> >I have to admit I'm curious whether or not you'll find Andreas'
> sources
> > credible: the 800th MP brigade, the FBI, and the US Department
> of
> > Justice Office of Legal Counsel, among others.
> >
> >
> Paul
> >
> > g. crabtree wrote:
> >> Didn't you read the
> sentence? I chose to use the word "think" instead
> >> of "know"
> because, unlike Mr. Schou, I realize that there's a
> >> difference
> between the two. I base my opinion on reports from
> >> accountable
> members of the former administration who have actual names
> >> and
> faces, not anonymous sources, wack job web sites, Al Jazeera, or
> >>
> the hysterical, foam flecked rants of Keith Olbermann.
> >>
>
> >> g
> >>
> >> ----- Original
> Message -----
> >> *From:* Sunil Ramalingam
> <mailto:sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> >> *Cc:* vision 2020 <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> *Sent:* Friday, April 24, 2009
> 6:13 PM
> >> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] "Harsh"
> Interrogations -As ye sow, so
> >> shall
> you
> >>
> >>
> Gary,
> >>
> >> You say, "What I have said
> and what I do think is that harsh
> >>
> interrogation methods can sometimes be necessary and can
> produce
> >> useful information. This does not
> give you license to infer
> >> anything
> else."
> >>
> >> How do you know
> this? Have you participated or observed
> these
> >> interrogations? Or are you relying on
> someone else's account?
> >> What makes that
> account so credible?
> >>
> >> For
> argument's sake if your first statement is correct,
> what's
> >> your point? Are you saying such
> interrogations should be used?
> >> If they
> cross the line into torture, should they still be
> used?
> >> How often? By
> whom?
> >>
> >>
> Sunil
> >>
> >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> From: jampot at roadrunner.com
> >> To: ophite at gmail.com; smith at turbonet.com
> >> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:13:38
> -0700
> >> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "Harsh"
> Interrogations -As ye sow, so
> >> shall
> you
> >>
> >> With your very first
> sentence you once again mischaracterize what
> >>
> it was I said. I did not concede that the things you mention
> took
> >> place. Just because you've read
> something in the huffington post
> >> and/or the
> new york times and regurgitate it here doesn't make
> it
> >> a verified fact. You don't know for
> certain, you were not there,
> >> you are
> electing to take someone at there word. Show me
> evidence
> >> and I'll concede that those events
> occurred and not before.
> >>
>
> >> What I did say was that I did not at any
> time defend or encourage
> >> those sorts of
> measures. Period. Your overused technique
> for
> >> taking what someone actually says and
> determining what they
> >> /really /mean and what
> they r/eally/ think is tedious and
> annoying.
> >>
>
> >> What I have said and what I do think is
> that harsh interrogation
> >> methods can
> sometimes be necessary and can produce
> useful
> >> information. This does not give you
> license to infer anything else.
> >>
>
> >> But Lord knows you almost certainly
> will.
> >>
>
> >>
> g
> >>
> >> -----
> Original Message
> -----
> >> *From:*
> Andreas Schou <mailto:ophite at gmail.com>
> >> *To:* a
> <mailto:smith at turbonet.com>
> >> *Cc:*
> keely emerinemix <mailto:kjajmix1 at msn.com>
> ;
> >> jampot at roadrunner.com <mailto:jampot at roadrunner.com>
> ;
> >> vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> *Sent:*
> Friday, April 24, 2009 3:17
> PM
> >> *Subject:* Re:
> [Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations -As ye
> sow,
> >> so shall
> you
> >>
> >> Gary
> --
> >>
> >> So,
> what you're saying is that you concede that abuses
> took
> >> place; you
> concede that interrogation techniques
> like
> >> uninsulated 30
> and 100 degree temperatures; you concede
> that
> >> the same guy
> responsible for Abu Ghraib was responsible
> for
> >> GTMO; you
> concede that any technique that did not produce
> pain
> >> "equivalent to
> death or organ failure" was approved for use
> on
> >> our GTMO
> detainees. And you claim that you don't support
> any
> >> of these things:
> that these things are
> torture.
> >>
> >>
> And then, conceding that we did these things, you
> nonetheless
> >> bang the
> table and insist that our approach to
> interrogation
> >> didn't
> constitute torture. The most charitable
> interpretation
> >> of
> this is that you are merely incapable of
> drawing
> >> conclusion.
> However, having corresponded with you over
> the
> >> years, I've
> found that you have a genius for drawing
> incorrect
> >> and
> immoral
> conclusions.
> >>
> >>
> What are the facts as you believe them to be? Did
> we
> >> waterboard? Did
> we leave detainees shackled to the
> ceiling,
> >> stewing in
> their own shit? How about week-long periods
> of
> >> sleep deprivation
> over years of detention? Did we do that?
> Do
> >> you think this is
> consistent with our values? Do you think
> we
> >> should be
> ordering US servicemen to do this sort of thing?
> Is
> >> that consistent
> with a duty to protect the honor of
> our
> >> servicemen and
> intelligenc
> officers?
> >> --
> ACS
> >>
> >> On
> Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 1:32 PM, a <smith at turbonet.com
> >> <mailto:smith at turbonet.com>>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> You're absolutely right. As a work of pulp fiction
> it's
> >>
> right up there with the Left Behind series and any of
> the
> >>
> vapid crap produced by Dan
> Brown.
> >>
>
> >>
> By the
> numbers:
> >>
>
> >>
> 1. I have at no time tried to justify the abuses in
> the
> >>
> FBI report to such as being chained with no access
> to
> >>
> food, water, or toilet
> facilities.
> >>
>
> >>
> 2. Exposing anyone to low temperatures to the point
> of
> >>
> hypothermia (Although one wonders how many US
> soldiers
> >>
> were treated for the same thing that night, no
> "torture"
> >>
> involved)
> >>
>
> >>
> 3. Sexual abuse of any
> description.
> >>
>
> >>
> Pretending that these are my expressed views and
> then
> >>
> vigorously taking me to task for them is dishonest in
> the
> >>
> extreme and is exactly the sort of thing I have come
> to
> >>
> expect from Mr. Schou. Playing fast and loose with
> the
> >>
> truth has allways been a hallmark of his debate style
> and
> >>
> for him to hold himself up as a paragon of
> moral
> >>
> righteousness is laughable. I believe that he would
> do
> >>
> well to climb down off his rustled moral high horse
> and
> >>
> respond to what I actually write not what he concocts
> in
> >>
> his fevered
> imagination.
> >>
>
> >>
> g
> >>
> >>
> ----- Original Message
> -----
> >>
> *From:* keely emerinemix <mailto:kjajmix1 at msn.com>
> >>
> *To:* ophite at gmail.com <mailto:ophite at gmail.com>
> ;
> >>
> jampot at roadrunner.com <mailto:jampot at roadrunner.com>
> >>
> *Cc:* vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>
> <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >>
> *Sent:* Friday, April 24, 2009 11:57
> AM
> >>
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations
> -As
> >>
> ye sow, so shall
> you
> >>
> >>
> This is probably the finest post I've ever read
> on
> >>
> Vision 2020.
>
> >>
> >>
> Thanks, Andreas.
>
> >>
> >>
> Keely
> >>
> http://keely-prevailingwinds.blogspot.com/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 22:31:27
> -0700
> >>
> From: ophite at gmail.com <mailto:ophite at gmail.com>
> >>
> To: jampot at roadrunner.com <mailto:jampot at roadrunner.com>
> >>
> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations
> -As
> >>
> ye sow, so shall
> you
> >>
> >>
> Gary
> --
> >>
> >>
> >From the FBI report on abuse at Guantanamo Bay
> under
> >>
> Geoffrey Miller, the general later brought in
> to
> >>
> "Gitmoize" Abu
> Ghraib:
> >>
> >>
> "on several occasions, witness ("W") saw
> detainees
> >>
> ("ds") in interrogation rooms chained hand and foot
> in
> >>
> fetal position to floor w/no chair/ food/water;
> most
> >>
> urinated or defecated on selves, and were left
> there
> >>
> 18, 24 hrs or more. Once, the air conditioning was
> so
> >>
> low that the barefoot d was shaking with cold.
> Another
> >>
> time, it was off so the unventilated room was over
> 100
> >>
> degrees, d was almost unconscious on floor with a
> pile
> >>
> of hair next to him (he had apparently been pulling
> it
> >>
> out throughout the night). Another time, it
> was
> >>
> sweltering hot and loud rap music played - d's
> hand
> >>
> and foot was chained and he was in a fetal position
> on
> >>
> the floor. Upon inquiry, W was told that
> interrogators
> >>
> [military contractors] ordered this treatment.
> Took
> >>
> place in Delta
> Camp"
> >>
> >>
> The report goes on to substantiate that more than
> one
> >>
> detainee (d) was brought into the infirmary
> with
> >>
> hypothermia after an interrogation session.
> Detainees
> >>
> pissing and shitting all over themselves.
> Being
> >>
> sexually assaulted by female guards. Forced to
> stay
> >>
> awake for longer than the human body can stand.
> Being
> >>
> partially drowned. Being stuck in a coffin with
> what
> >>
> you're told are
> scorpions.
> >>
> >>
> These are not conditions you will find any
> Hilton
> >>
> other than the Hanoi. They are not on the continuum
> of
> >>
> acceptable behaviors any more than a knife is on
> the
> >>
> continuum of 'comfortable objects' because, like
> a
> >>
> knife, it's also an object. These are techniques
> we
> >>
> reverse-engineered from North Korean
> torture
> >>
> techniques in order to create SERE, and
> then
> >>
> reverse-reverse engineered in order to create GTMO
> and
> >>
> the "black sites." This is despite the fact that we
> --
> >>
> as in, our country -- prosecuted Japanese soldiers
> for
> >>
> waterboarding, and even Israel, no friend
> of
> >>
> terrorists, has abandoned it because it produces
> bad
> >>
> intelligence. Indeed, if I were just a little
> more
> >>
> cynical than I am, I'd say that that's quite
> the
> >>
> point: we waterboarded KSM for information on
> the
> >>
> nonexistent Iraq-al-Qaida connection, and Abu
> Zubaydah
> >>
> for information on confabulated terrorist plots he
> had
> >>
> no reason to know
> about.
> >>
> >>
> You're wrong about the facts. You're wrong about
> the
> >>
> law. I could go on about that, but I'd just be
> arguing
> >>
> with the tinny little noises escaping from the
> echo
> >>
> chamber you pretend will replace journalism.
> I'm
> >>
> waiting with bated breath to find out why you
> think
> >>
> the FBI is infiltrated by ACORN or how George Soros
> is
> >>
> dictating the legal conclusions of
> Republican
> >>
> appointees at Foggy Bottom. That's just
> your
> >>
> intentional ignorance, plus arrogance, tribalism,
> and
> >>
> smug self-satisfaction at your clever turns of
> phrase.
> >>
> I can tolerate
> that.
> >>
> >>
> What gets to me -- why I'm provoked to respond --
> is
> >>
> that you're willing, even eager, to sell out
> our
> >>
> country's honor in order to soothe your
> rank
> >>
> cowardice. Or maybe it makes you feel like a real
> man
> >>
> to hear that some punk Afghan teenager with an
> AK-47
> >>
> was awake for a week, stewing in his own
> shit,
> >>
> shackled to the floor. Whatever the impulse is
> --
> >>
> tribalism? sadism? fear? -- it's not anything
> I
> >>
> recognize as American. What third-world
> tinpot
> >>
> dictatorship did you grow up in that you think this
> is
> >>
> acceptable?
> >>
> >>
> We consent to abide by certain principles. It's
> that
> >>
> common consent that keeps our country from being
> a
> >>
> collection of miscellaneous foreigners on
> someone
> >>
> else's land. I have disagreements with
> conservatives
> >>
> about the metes and bounds of those principles,
> sure.
> >>
> But here you are, disputing whether America
> should
> >>
> have principles at
> all.
> >>
> >>
> Americans, by which I mean FDR and Eisenhower,
> Reagan
> >>
> and JFK, held off the Soviets and Nazi
> Germany,
> >>
> nations that both posed a dire existential threat
> to
> >>
> our country, while banning torture, expanding
> the
> >>
> protections of the Geneva Convention, and
> abandoning
> >>
> the pretense that it's okay to attack
> civilian
> >>
> populations. These are tempting tactics. Some of
> them
> >>
> work. Torture produces words rather than silence.
> The
> >>
> Geneva Convention bans effective tactics for
> making
> >>
> war. Killing civilians forces submission. We
> stepped
> >>
> away from these things. We won. Twice. Over the
> two
> >>
> most belligerent, technologically advanced,
> and
> >>
> staggeringly immoral nations ever to exist, one
> armed
> >>
> with enough weapons to destroy the world several
> times
> >>
> over.
> >>
> >>
> But then 9/11 made you wet yourself. A crime
> of
> >>
> unimaginable scale happened to people in New
> York
> >>
> City; people whom you don't even accord the
> privilege
> >>
> of being called Americans. The crime was carried
> out
> >>
> by guys carrying weapons you can buy at Home
> Depot.
> >>
> Somehow, that uprooted your sense that America
> stands
> >>
> for anything. But how deep were those roots,
> Gary,
> >>
> that fewer deaths than those caused by the flu
> could
> >>
> pull them
> up?
> >>
> >>
> Our soldiers make a commitment. They tell us
> they'll
> >>
> uphold the Constitution. But there's a reciprocal
> side
> >>
> to that commtiment: we tell them that they're the
> good
> >>
> guys; that they're not just protecting American
> lives,
> >>
> but American values. That they're fighting
> for
> >>
> liberty, mom, and apple pie. Because 9/11 made you
> wet
> >>
> yourself, you're asking those soldiers to sit and
> play
> >>
> Minesweeper while some dumb Afghan redneck shits
> his
> >>
> pants in Arctic cold, chained to the ceiling of
> a
> >>
> lightless cell. If you tell his President to tell
> our
> >>
> soldiers to do that, you've reneged on our
> commitment
> >>
> to make our soldiers the good guys. Our moral
> purpose
> >>
> doesn't come from who we are; it comes from what we
> do.
> >>
> >>
> I don't know whether there's going to be a
> reckoning
> >>
> for the people that authorized this. But you're
> the
> >>
> reason there should be: to put the rudder straight
> and
> >>
> make people like you -- who actively argues
> for
> >>
> torture -- too ashamed to speak up in public.
> Anything
> >>
> you just said should be enough to make any
> decent
> >>
> person drop their beer, walk out of the room, and
> go
> >>
> find another locksmith. I'm looking forward to the
> day
> >>
> when it
> is.
> >>
> >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
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> >>
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