[Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations -As ye sow, so shall you
Sunil Ramalingam
sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
Sat Apr 25 16:47:24 PDT 2009
When?
Who decides and on what basis?
Isn't it still illegal?
Sunil
From: jampot at roadrunner.com
To: godshatter at yahoo.com
CC: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations -As ye sow, so shall you
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 16:00:19 -0700
Clearly and sadly the sources are credible and
instances of abuse occurred that shouldn't have however, from my reading of the
Taguba report the personnel of the 800th MP brigade that were abusing the
prisoners were acting far outside the bounds of official policy and the
offenders were made to answer for their actions.
I'm not sure what it is about the legal finding
provided by the DoJ. I'm supposed to find particularly damning. To my eye it
appears to, among other things, lay out what may or may not be considered
torture based on misc. domestic and international case law. Needless to say I am
not an attorney but skipping to the end of the finding in the conclusion it
states:
We further conclude that CAT defines U.S.
international law obligations with respect to .torture and other cruel, inhuman,
or degrading treatment or punishment. The standard of conduct regarding torture
is the same as that which is found in the torture statute, 18 U.S.C.
§§·.234D2340A. Moreover, the scope of U.S. obligations under CAT regarding
cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment is limited to conduct
prohibited by the Eighth, Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments. Customary
international law does not supply any additional standards.
Seems to me that if you have a problem with the
definition of torture, It should be taken up with who ever wrote 18 U.S.C.
§§·.234D2340A and not the former administrations justice dept. or John
Yoo.
The FBI report is, for me the most problematic. I
take some small comfort in the fact that of 493 personnel asked if they
witnessed abuse only 26 positive responses (none of which rising to the
level of torture, some not even all that abusive, and at least one that did not
involve American personnel) were received leading me to believe that the abuse
was nowhere near as wide spread as some would have us believe. Any is too much
and I'm thankful there wasn't more.
None of this changes my opinion that harsh
interrogations can sometimes be required. Sorry.
g
..
..
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Rumelhart" <godshatter at yahoo.com>
To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
Cc: "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>;
"vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 6:57 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations
-As ye sow, so shall you
>I have to admit I'm curious whether or not you'll find Andreas'
sources
> credible: the 800th MP brigade, the FBI, and the US Department
of
> Justice Office of Legal Counsel, among others.
>
>
Paul
>
> g. crabtree wrote:
>> Didn't you read the
sentence? I chose to use the word "think" instead
>> of "know"
because, unlike Mr. Schou, I realize that there's a
>> difference
between the two. I base my opinion on reports from
>> accountable
members of the former administration who have actual names
>> and
faces, not anonymous sources, wack job web sites, Al Jazeera, or
>>
the hysterical, foam flecked rants of Keith Olbermann.
>>
>> g
>>
>> ----- Original
Message -----
>> *From:* Sunil Ramalingam
<mailto:sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
>> *Cc:* vision 2020 <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> *Sent:* Friday, April 24, 2009
6:13 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] "Harsh"
Interrogations -As ye sow, so
>> shall
you
>>
>>
Gary,
>>
>> You say, "What I have said
and what I do think is that harsh
>>
interrogation methods can sometimes be necessary and can
produce
>> useful information. This does not
give you license to infer
>> anything
else."
>>
>> How do you know
this? Have you participated or observed
these
>> interrogations? Or are you relying on
someone else's account?
>> What makes that
account so credible?
>>
>> For
argument's sake if your first statement is correct,
what's
>> your point? Are you saying such
interrogations should be used?
>> If they
cross the line into torture, should they still be
used?
>> How often? By
whom?
>>
>>
Sunil
>>
>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
From: jampot at roadrunner.com
>> To: ophite at gmail.com; smith at turbonet.com
>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:13:38
-0700
>> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "Harsh"
Interrogations -As ye sow, so
>> shall
you
>>
>> With your very first
sentence you once again mischaracterize what
>>
it was I said. I did not concede that the things you mention
took
>> place. Just because you've read
something in the huffington post
>> and/or the
new york times and regurgitate it here doesn't make
it
>> a verified fact. You don't know for
certain, you were not there,
>> you are
electing to take someone at there word. Show me
evidence
>> and I'll concede that those events
occurred and not before.
>>
>> What I did say was that I did not at any
time defend or encourage
>> those sorts of
measures. Period. Your overused technique
for
>> taking what someone actually says and
determining what they
>> /really /mean and what
they r/eally/ think is tedious and
annoying.
>>
>> What I have said and what I do think is
that harsh interrogation
>> methods can
sometimes be necessary and can produce
useful
>> information. This does not give you
license to infer anything else.
>>
>> But Lord knows you almost certainly
will.
>>
>>
g
>>
>> -----
Original Message
-----
>> *From:*
Andreas Schou <mailto:ophite at gmail.com>
>> *To:* a
<mailto:smith at turbonet.com>
>> *Cc:*
keely emerinemix <mailto:kjajmix1 at msn.com>
;
>> jampot at roadrunner.com <mailto:jampot at roadrunner.com>
;
>> vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> *Sent:*
Friday, April 24, 2009 3:17
PM
>> *Subject:* Re:
[Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations -As ye
sow,
>> so shall
you
>>
>> Gary
--
>>
>> So,
what you're saying is that you concede that abuses
took
>> place; you
concede that interrogation techniques
like
>> uninsulated 30
and 100 degree temperatures; you concede
that
>> the same guy
responsible for Abu Ghraib was responsible
for
>> GTMO; you
concede that any technique that did not produce
pain
>> "equivalent to
death or organ failure" was approved for use
on
>> our GTMO
detainees. And you claim that you don't support
any
>> of these things:
that these things are
torture.
>>
>>
And then, conceding that we did these things, you
nonetheless
>> bang the
table and insist that our approach to
interrogation
>> didn't
constitute torture. The most charitable
interpretation
>> of
this is that you are merely incapable of
drawing
>> conclusion.
However, having corresponded with you over
the
>> years, I've
found that you have a genius for drawing
incorrect
>> and
immoral
conclusions.
>>
>>
What are the facts as you believe them to be? Did
we
>> waterboard? Did
we leave detainees shackled to the
ceiling,
>> stewing in
their own shit? How about week-long periods
of
>> sleep deprivation
over years of detention? Did we do that?
Do
>> you think this is
consistent with our values? Do you think
we
>> should be
ordering US servicemen to do this sort of thing?
Is
>> that consistent
with a duty to protect the honor of
our
>> servicemen and
intelligenc
officers?
>> --
ACS
>>
>> On
Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 1:32 PM, a <smith at turbonet.com
>> <mailto:smith at turbonet.com>>
wrote:
>>
>>
You're absolutely right. As a work of pulp fiction
it's
>>
right up there with the Left Behind series and any of
the
>>
vapid crap produced by Dan
Brown.
>>
>>
By the
numbers:
>>
>>
1. I have at no time tried to justify the abuses in
the
>>
FBI report to such as being chained with no access
to
>>
food, water, or toilet
facilities.
>>
>>
2. Exposing anyone to low temperatures to the point
of
>>
hypothermia (Although one wonders how many US
soldiers
>>
were treated for the same thing that night, no
"torture"
>>
involved)
>>
>>
3. Sexual abuse of any
description.
>>
>>
Pretending that these are my expressed views and
then
>>
vigorously taking me to task for them is dishonest in
the
>>
extreme and is exactly the sort of thing I have come
to
>>
expect from Mr. Schou. Playing fast and loose with
the
>>
truth has allways been a hallmark of his debate style
and
>>
for him to hold himself up as a paragon of
moral
>>
righteousness is laughable. I believe that he would
do
>>
well to climb down off his rustled moral high horse
and
>>
respond to what I actually write not what he concocts
in
>>
his fevered
imagination.
>>
>>
g
>>
>>
----- Original Message
-----
>>
*From:* keely emerinemix <mailto:kjajmix1 at msn.com>
>>
*To:* ophite at gmail.com <mailto:ophite at gmail.com>
;
>>
jampot at roadrunner.com <mailto:jampot at roadrunner.com>
>>
*Cc:* vision2020 at moscow.com
>>
<mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>
*Sent:* Friday, April 24, 2009 11:57
AM
>>
*Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations
-As
>>
ye sow, so shall
you
>>
>>
This is probably the finest post I've ever read
on
>>
Vision 2020.
>>
>>
Thanks, Andreas.
>>
>>
Keely
>>
http://keely-prevailingwinds.blogspot.com/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 22:31:27
-0700
>>
From: ophite at gmail.com <mailto:ophite at gmail.com>
>>
To: jampot at roadrunner.com <mailto:jampot at roadrunner.com>
>>
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations
-As
>>
ye sow, so shall
you
>>
>>
Gary
--
>>
>>
>From the FBI report on abuse at Guantanamo Bay
under
>>
Geoffrey Miller, the general later brought in
to
>>
"Gitmoize" Abu
Ghraib:
>>
>>
"on several occasions, witness ("W") saw
detainees
>>
("ds") in interrogation rooms chained hand and foot
in
>>
fetal position to floor w/no chair/ food/water;
most
>>
urinated or defecated on selves, and were left
there
>>
18, 24 hrs or more. Once, the air conditioning was
so
>>
low that the barefoot d was shaking with cold.
Another
>>
time, it was off so the unventilated room was over
100
>>
degrees, d was almost unconscious on floor with a
pile
>>
of hair next to him (he had apparently been pulling
it
>>
out throughout the night). Another time, it
was
>>
sweltering hot and loud rap music played - d's
hand
>>
and foot was chained and he was in a fetal position
on
>>
the floor. Upon inquiry, W was told that
interrogators
>>
[military contractors] ordered this treatment.
Took
>>
place in Delta
Camp"
>>
>>
The report goes on to substantiate that more than
one
>>
detainee (d) was brought into the infirmary
with
>>
hypothermia after an interrogation session.
Detainees
>>
pissing and shitting all over themselves.
Being
>>
sexually assaulted by female guards. Forced to
stay
>>
awake for longer than the human body can stand.
Being
>>
partially drowned. Being stuck in a coffin with
what
>>
you're told are
scorpions.
>>
>>
These are not conditions you will find any
Hilton
>>
other than the Hanoi. They are not on the continuum
of
>>
acceptable behaviors any more than a knife is on
the
>>
continuum of 'comfortable objects' because, like
a
>>
knife, it's also an object. These are techniques
we
>>
reverse-engineered from North Korean
torture
>>
techniques in order to create SERE, and
then
>>
reverse-reverse engineered in order to create GTMO
and
>>
the "black sites." This is despite the fact that we
--
>>
as in, our country -- prosecuted Japanese soldiers
for
>>
waterboarding, and even Israel, no friend
of
>>
terrorists, has abandoned it because it produces
bad
>>
intelligence. Indeed, if I were just a little
more
>>
cynical than I am, I'd say that that's quite
the
>>
point: we waterboarded KSM for information on
the
>>
nonexistent Iraq-al-Qaida connection, and Abu
Zubaydah
>>
for information on confabulated terrorist plots he
had
>>
no reason to know
about.
>>
>>
You're wrong about the facts. You're wrong about
the
>>
law. I could go on about that, but I'd just be
arguing
>>
with the tinny little noises escaping from the
echo
>>
chamber you pretend will replace journalism.
I'm
>>
waiting with bated breath to find out why you
think
>>
the FBI is infiltrated by ACORN or how George Soros
is
>>
dictating the legal conclusions of
Republican
>>
appointees at Foggy Bottom. That's just
your
>>
intentional ignorance, plus arrogance, tribalism,
and
>>
smug self-satisfaction at your clever turns of
phrase.
>>
I can tolerate
that.
>>
>>
What gets to me -- why I'm provoked to respond --
is
>>
that you're willing, even eager, to sell out
our
>>
country's honor in order to soothe your
rank
>>
cowardice. Or maybe it makes you feel like a real
man
>>
to hear that some punk Afghan teenager with an
AK-47
>>
was awake for a week, stewing in his own
shit,
>>
shackled to the floor. Whatever the impulse is
--
>>
tribalism? sadism? fear? -- it's not anything
I
>>
recognize as American. What third-world
tinpot
>>
dictatorship did you grow up in that you think this
is
>>
acceptable?
>>
>>
We consent to abide by certain principles. It's
that
>>
common consent that keeps our country from being
a
>>
collection of miscellaneous foreigners on
someone
>>
else's land. I have disagreements with
conservatives
>>
about the metes and bounds of those principles,
sure.
>>
But here you are, disputing whether America
should
>>
have principles at
all.
>>
>>
Americans, by which I mean FDR and Eisenhower,
Reagan
>>
and JFK, held off the Soviets and Nazi
Germany,
>>
nations that both posed a dire existential threat
to
>>
our country, while banning torture, expanding
the
>>
protections of the Geneva Convention, and
abandoning
>>
the pretense that it's okay to attack
civilian
>>
populations. These are tempting tactics. Some of
them
>>
work. Torture produces words rather than silence.
The
>>
Geneva Convention bans effective tactics for
making
>>
war. Killing civilians forces submission. We
stepped
>>
away from these things. We won. Twice. Over the
two
>>
most belligerent, technologically advanced,
and
>>
staggeringly immoral nations ever to exist, one
armed
>>
with enough weapons to destroy the world several
times
>>
over.
>>
>>
But then 9/11 made you wet yourself. A crime
of
>>
unimaginable scale happened to people in New
York
>>
City; people whom you don't even accord the
privilege
>>
of being called Americans. The crime was carried
out
>>
by guys carrying weapons you can buy at Home
Depot.
>>
Somehow, that uprooted your sense that America
stands
>>
for anything. But how deep were those roots,
Gary,
>>
that fewer deaths than those caused by the flu
could
>>
pull them
up?
>>
>>
Our soldiers make a commitment. They tell us
they'll
>>
uphold the Constitution. But there's a reciprocal
side
>>
to that commtiment: we tell them that they're the
good
>>
guys; that they're not just protecting American
lives,
>>
but American values. That they're fighting
for
>>
liberty, mom, and apple pie. Because 9/11 made you
wet
>>
yourself, you're asking those soldiers to sit and
play
>>
Minesweeper while some dumb Afghan redneck shits
his
>>
pants in Arctic cold, chained to the ceiling of
a
>>
lightless cell. If you tell his President to tell
our
>>
soldiers to do that, you've reneged on our
commitment
>>
to make our soldiers the good guys. Our moral
purpose
>>
doesn't come from who we are; it comes from what we
do.
>>
>>
I don't know whether there's going to be a
reckoning
>>
for the people that authorized this. But you're
the
>>
reason there should be: to put the rudder straight
and
>>
make people like you -- who actively argues
for
>>
torture -- too ashamed to speak up in public.
Anything
>>
you just said should be enough to make any
decent
>>
person drop their beer, walk out of the room, and
go
>>
find another locksmith. I'm looking forward to the
day
>>
when it
is.
>>
>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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