[Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations -As ye sow, so shall you
g. crabtree
jampot at roadrunner.com
Sat Apr 25 16:00:19 PDT 2009
Clearly and sadly the sources are credible and instances of abuse occurred that shouldn't have however, from my reading of the Taguba report the personnel of the 800th MP brigade that were abusing the prisoners were acting far outside the bounds of official policy and the offenders were made to answer for their actions.
I'm not sure what it is about the legal finding provided by the DoJ. I'm supposed to find particularly damning. To my eye it appears to, among other things, lay out what may or may not be considered torture based on misc. domestic and international case law. Needless to say I am not an attorney but skipping to the end of the finding in the conclusion it states:
We further conclude that CAT defines U.S. international law obligations with respect to .torture and other cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment. The standard of conduct regarding torture is the same as that which is found in the torture statute, 18 U.S.C. §§·.234D2340A. Moreover, the scope of U.S. obligations under CAT regarding cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment is limited to conduct prohibited by the Eighth, Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments. Customary international law does not supply any additional standards.
Seems to me that if you have a problem with the definition of torture, It should be taken up with who ever wrote 18 U.S.C. §§·.234D2340A and not the former administrations justice dept. or John Yoo.
The FBI report is, for me the most problematic. I take some small comfort in the fact that of 493 personnel asked if they witnessed abuse only 26 positive responses (none of which rising to the level of torture, some not even all that abusive, and at least one that did not involve American personnel) were received leading me to believe that the abuse was nowhere near as wide spread as some would have us believe. Any is too much and I'm thankful there wasn't more.
None of this changes my opinion that harsh interrogations can sometimes be required. Sorry.
g
..
..
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Rumelhart" <godshatter at yahoo.com>
To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
Cc: "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>; "vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 6:57 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations -As ye sow, so shall you
>I have to admit I'm curious whether or not you'll find Andreas' sources
> credible: the 800th MP brigade, the FBI, and the US Department of
> Justice Office of Legal Counsel, among others.
>
> Paul
>
> g. crabtree wrote:
>> Didn't you read the sentence? I chose to use the word "think" instead
>> of "know" because, unlike Mr. Schou, I realize that there's a
>> difference between the two. I base my opinion on reports from
>> accountable members of the former administration who have actual names
>> and faces, not anonymous sources, wack job web sites, Al Jazeera, or
>> the hysterical, foam flecked rants of Keith Olbermann.
>>
>> g
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* Sunil Ramalingam <mailto:sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
>> *Cc:* vision 2020 <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> *Sent:* Friday, April 24, 2009 6:13 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations -As ye sow, so
>> shall you
>>
>> Gary,
>>
>> You say, "What I have said and what I do think is that harsh
>> interrogation methods can sometimes be necessary and can produce
>> useful information. This does not give you license to infer
>> anything else."
>>
>> How do you know this? Have you participated or observed these
>> interrogations? Or are you relying on someone else's account?
>> What makes that account so credible?
>>
>> For argument's sake if your first statement is correct, what's
>> your point? Are you saying such interrogations should be used?
>> If they cross the line into torture, should they still be used?
>> How often? By whom?
>>
>> Sunil
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> From: jampot at roadrunner.com
>> To: ophite at gmail.com; smith at turbonet.com
>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:13:38 -0700
>> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations -As ye sow, so
>> shall you
>>
>> With your very first sentence you once again mischaracterize what
>> it was I said. I did not concede that the things you mention took
>> place. Just because you've read something in the huffington post
>> and/or the new york times and regurgitate it here doesn't make it
>> a verified fact. You don't know for certain, you were not there,
>> you are electing to take someone at there word. Show me evidence
>> and I'll concede that those events occurred and not before.
>>
>> What I did say was that I did not at any time defend or encourage
>> those sorts of measures. Period. Your overused technique for
>> taking what someone actually says and determining what they
>> /really /mean and what they r/eally/ think is tedious and annoying.
>>
>> What I have said and what I do think is that harsh interrogation
>> methods can sometimes be necessary and can produce useful
>> information. This does not give you license to infer anything else.
>>
>> But Lord knows you almost certainly will.
>>
>> g
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* Andreas Schou <mailto:ophite at gmail.com>
>> *To:* a <mailto:smith at turbonet.com>
>> *Cc:* keely emerinemix <mailto:kjajmix1 at msn.com> ;
>> jampot at roadrunner.com <mailto:jampot at roadrunner.com> ;
>> vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> *Sent:* Friday, April 24, 2009 3:17 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations -As ye sow,
>> so shall you
>>
>> Gary --
>>
>> So, what you're saying is that you concede that abuses took
>> place; you concede that interrogation techniques like
>> uninsulated 30 and 100 degree temperatures; you concede that
>> the same guy responsible for Abu Ghraib was responsible for
>> GTMO; you concede that any technique that did not produce pain
>> "equivalent to death or organ failure" was approved for use on
>> our GTMO detainees. And you claim that you don't support any
>> of these things: that these things are torture.
>>
>> And then, conceding that we did these things, you nonetheless
>> bang the table and insist that our approach to interrogation
>> didn't constitute torture. The most charitable interpretation
>> of this is that you are merely incapable of drawing
>> conclusion. However, having corresponded with you over the
>> years, I've found that you have a genius for drawing incorrect
>> and immoral conclusions.
>>
>> What are the facts as you believe them to be? Did we
>> waterboard? Did we leave detainees shackled to the ceiling,
>> stewing in their own shit? How about week-long periods of
>> sleep deprivation over years of detention? Did we do that? Do
>> you think this is consistent with our values? Do you think we
>> should be ordering US servicemen to do this sort of thing? Is
>> that consistent with a duty to protect the honor of our
>> servicemen and intelligenc officers?
>> -- ACS
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 1:32 PM, a <smith at turbonet.com
>> <mailto:smith at turbonet.com>> wrote:
>>
>> You're absolutely right. As a work of pulp fiction it's
>> right up there with the Left Behind series and any of the
>> vapid crap produced by Dan Brown.
>>
>> By the numbers:
>>
>> 1. I have at no time tried to justify the abuses in the
>> FBI report to such as being chained with no access to
>> food, water, or toilet facilities.
>>
>> 2. Exposing anyone to low temperatures to the point of
>> hypothermia (Although one wonders how many US soldiers
>> were treated for the same thing that night, no "torture"
>> involved)
>>
>> 3. Sexual abuse of any description.
>>
>> Pretending that these are my expressed views and then
>> vigorously taking me to task for them is dishonest in the
>> extreme and is exactly the sort of thing I have come to
>> expect from Mr. Schou. Playing fast and loose with the
>> truth has allways been a hallmark of his debate style and
>> for him to hold himself up as a paragon of moral
>> righteousness is laughable. I believe that he would do
>> well to climb down off his rustled moral high horse and
>> respond to what I actually write not what he concocts in
>> his fevered imagination.
>>
>> g
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* keely emerinemix <mailto:kjajmix1 at msn.com>
>> *To:* ophite at gmail.com <mailto:ophite at gmail.com> ;
>> jampot at roadrunner.com <mailto:jampot at roadrunner.com>
>> *Cc:* vision2020 at moscow.com
>> <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> *Sent:* Friday, April 24, 2009 11:57 AM
>> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations -As
>> ye sow, so shall you
>>
>> This is probably the finest post I've ever read on
>> Vision 2020.
>>
>> Thanks, Andreas.
>>
>> Keely
>> http://keely-prevailingwinds.blogspot.com/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 22:31:27 -0700
>> From: ophite at gmail.com <mailto:ophite at gmail.com>
>> To: jampot at roadrunner.com <mailto:jampot at roadrunner.com>
>> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations -As
>> ye sow, so shall you
>>
>> Gary --
>>
>> From the FBI report on abuse at Guantanamo Bay under
>> Geoffrey Miller, the general later brought in to
>> "Gitmoize" Abu Ghraib:
>>
>> "on several occasions, witness ("W") saw detainees
>> ("ds") in interrogation rooms chained hand and foot in
>> fetal position to floor w/no chair/ food/water; most
>> urinated or defecated on selves, and were left there
>> 18, 24 hrs or more. Once, the air conditioning was so
>> low that the barefoot d was shaking with cold. Another
>> time, it was off so the unventilated room was over 100
>> degrees, d was almost unconscious on floor with a pile
>> of hair next to him (he had apparently been pulling it
>> out throughout the night). Another time, it was
>> sweltering hot and loud rap music played - d's hand
>> and foot was chained and he was in a fetal position on
>> the floor. Upon inquiry, W was told that interrogators
>> [military contractors] ordered this treatment. Took
>> place in Delta Camp"
>>
>> The report goes on to substantiate that more than one
>> detainee (d) was brought into the infirmary with
>> hypothermia after an interrogation session. Detainees
>> pissing and shitting all over themselves. Being
>> sexually assaulted by female guards. Forced to stay
>> awake for longer than the human body can stand. Being
>> partially drowned. Being stuck in a coffin with what
>> you're told are scorpions.
>>
>> These are not conditions you will find any Hilton
>> other than the Hanoi. They are not on the continuum of
>> acceptable behaviors any more than a knife is on the
>> continuum of 'comfortable objects' because, like a
>> knife, it's also an object. These are techniques we
>> reverse-engineered from North Korean torture
>> techniques in order to create SERE, and then
>> reverse-reverse engineered in order to create GTMO and
>> the "black sites." This is despite the fact that we --
>> as in, our country -- prosecuted Japanese soldiers for
>> waterboarding, and even Israel, no friend of
>> terrorists, has abandoned it because it produces bad
>> intelligence. Indeed, if I were just a little more
>> cynical than I am, I'd say that that's quite the
>> point: we waterboarded KSM for information on the
>> nonexistent Iraq-al-Qaida connection, and Abu Zubaydah
>> for information on confabulated terrorist plots he had
>> no reason to know about.
>>
>> You're wrong about the facts. You're wrong about the
>> law. I could go on about that, but I'd just be arguing
>> with the tinny little noises escaping from the echo
>> chamber you pretend will replace journalism. I'm
>> waiting with bated breath to find out why you think
>> the FBI is infiltrated by ACORN or how George Soros is
>> dictating the legal conclusions of Republican
>> appointees at Foggy Bottom. That's just your
>> intentional ignorance, plus arrogance, tribalism, and
>> smug self-satisfaction at your clever turns of phrase.
>> I can tolerate that.
>>
>> What gets to me -- why I'm provoked to respond -- is
>> that you're willing, even eager, to sell out our
>> country's honor in order to soothe your rank
>> cowardice. Or maybe it makes you feel like a real man
>> to hear that some punk Afghan teenager with an AK-47
>> was awake for a week, stewing in his own shit,
>> shackled to the floor. Whatever the impulse is --
>> tribalism? sadism? fear? -- it's not anything I
>> recognize as American. What third-world tinpot
>> dictatorship did you grow up in that you think this is
>> acceptable?
>>
>> We consent to abide by certain principles. It's that
>> common consent that keeps our country from being a
>> collection of miscellaneous foreigners on someone
>> else's land. I have disagreements with conservatives
>> about the metes and bounds of those principles, sure.
>> But here you are, disputing whether America should
>> have principles at all.
>>
>> Americans, by which I mean FDR and Eisenhower, Reagan
>> and JFK, held off the Soviets and Nazi Germany,
>> nations that both posed a dire existential threat to
>> our country, while banning torture, expanding the
>> protections of the Geneva Convention, and abandoning
>> the pretense that it's okay to attack civilian
>> populations. These are tempting tactics. Some of them
>> work. Torture produces words rather than silence. The
>> Geneva Convention bans effective tactics for making
>> war. Killing civilians forces submission. We stepped
>> away from these things. We won. Twice. Over the two
>> most belligerent, technologically advanced, and
>> staggeringly immoral nations ever to exist, one armed
>> with enough weapons to destroy the world several times
>> over.
>>
>> But then 9/11 made you wet yourself. A crime of
>> unimaginable scale happened to people in New York
>> City; people whom you don't even accord the privilege
>> of being called Americans. The crime was carried out
>> by guys carrying weapons you can buy at Home Depot.
>> Somehow, that uprooted your sense that America stands
>> for anything. But how deep were those roots, Gary,
>> that fewer deaths than those caused by the flu could
>> pull them up?
>>
>> Our soldiers make a commitment. They tell us they'll
>> uphold the Constitution. But there's a reciprocal side
>> to that commtiment: we tell them that they're the good
>> guys; that they're not just protecting American lives,
>> but American values. That they're fighting for
>> liberty, mom, and apple pie. Because 9/11 made you wet
>> yourself, you're asking those soldiers to sit and play
>> Minesweeper while some dumb Afghan redneck shits his
>> pants in Arctic cold, chained to the ceiling of a
>> lightless cell. If you tell his President to tell our
>> soldiers to do that, you've reneged on our commitment
>> to make our soldiers the good guys. Our moral purpose
>> doesn't come from who we are; it comes from what we do.
>>
>> I don't know whether there's going to be a reckoning
>> for the people that authorized this. But you're the
>> reason there should be: to put the rudder straight and
>> make people like you -- who actively argues for
>> torture -- too ashamed to speak up in public. Anything
>> you just said should be enough to make any decent
>> person drop their beer, walk out of the room, and go
>> find another locksmith. I'm looking forward to the day
>> when it is.
>>
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