[Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
joekc at roadrunner.com
joekc at roadrunner.com
Mon Sep 29 22:10:35 PDT 2008
No it wasn't the question, Sue. And here's how I see it:
Johnson: Civil rights legislation.
Nixon: CREEP, Watergate, resignation in shame.
But, Roger, I concede that I'm missing part of the history by not being as award of LBJ's failures as
I was of Nixon's. Thanks for that. But what about their successes?
In any event, I'm not going to the wall with Johnson. Yet Johnson is dead and Liddy is not.
--
Joe Campbell
---- Sue Hovey <suehovey at moscow.com> wrote:
> Interesting comment, "if you go back and study history you will find that
> Johnson was a bigger crook than Nixon ever thought of being." Inasmuch as
> I'm not clairvoyant like Roger, and don't have the foggiest idea what Nixon
> was thinking, I will simply say that one does not have to "go back and study
> history," one can do it from their current position and will still be hard
> pressed to prove that Johnson was a bigger crook than Nixon. One can pretty
> well substantiate the Johnson presidency was more effective and much less
> destructive of our democratic system than the Nixon presidency, but that
> wasn't the question, was it?
>
> Sue H.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "lfalen" <lfalen at turbonet.com>
> To: <joekc at roadrunner.com>
> Cc: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>; <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 10:19 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
>
>
> > Joe
> > Just to make it clear, I am not a Nixon fan. There are a lot of things
> > about his Administration I disagree with( Wage Price controls being one).
> > Because he won by a landside does not mean that I think it was right and
> > no I would not like to see berry Bonds elected to the Baseball hall of
> > fame. Even though I know very little about him as I am not a baseball fan.
> > As I said I am not a Nixon fan, but if you go back and study history you
> > will find that Johnson was a bigger crook than Nixon ever thought of
> > being.
> > Roger
> > -----Original message-----
> > From: joekc at roadrunner.com
> > Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 15:34:36 -0700
> > To: lfalen lfalen at turbonet.com
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
> >
> >> Roger,
> >>
> >> This seems like an important matter, so I'll try to make my point one
> >> more time.
> >>
> >> First, I'll concede that I'm ignorant about the LBJ affair. I missed the
> >> information in the early
> >> 60s because I was 2 years old. Still, you seem to know more than I do and
> >> at least one person
> >> who has read the Caro book contacted me offlist telling me that you're
> >> right on this score.
> >>
> >> Second, I think it is presumptuous to say that Nixon would have won had
> >> CREEP not done what it
> >> did. But that doesn't really matter much to my point. That was the
> >> purpose of the Barry Bonds
> >> analogy. Do you think he deserves to be elected to the Baseball Hall of
> >> Fame? After all, by your
> >> argument, he hit a "landslides" worth of homeruns, more than any other
> >> person in baseball. If he
> >> didn't cheat he still would have hit enough to be worthy of election. But
> >> he did cheat and for that
> >> reason he is not worthy. That is how I see it. And I think in the
> >> Baseball case you'd say the same.
> >>
> >> Thus, Nixon cheated. He did not deserve the presidency. I think, and this
> >> might just be my own
> >> personal opinion, that the worse thing that could happen in a democracy
> >> is for someone to be
> >> elected president who cheated, who did not deserve it for that reason. It
> >> flies in the face of our
> >> most important value, e.g., that we are a government of the people. Were
> >> I running for president I
> >> would want to distance myself from folks who helped a former president
> >> win by cheating. It looks bad.
> >>
> >> But this is just appearance. I am not suggesting that you shouldn't vote
> >> for McCain because he
> >> won't distance himself from Liddy. In several posts I've been explicit
> >> about exactly what I am
> >> saying -- I listed 4 points -- and those points still hold.
> >>
> >> Lastly, you can't say, "Liddy didn't do much. He was just one guy." For
> >> that claim holds true of any
> >> single gangster or drug dealer. He was a key member of a very bad team.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Joe Campbell
> >>
> >> ---- lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote:
> >> > I think we can agree that they were all wrong. Were we disagree is on
> >> > the out come of the election. Nixon won by a landslide. What Liddy did
> >> > had no bearing on it. That does not make it any less wrong. On what LBJ
> >> > did, the lack of universal knowledge of it does not make it any less
> >> > wrong. Your search was apparently limited. In the early sixties there
> >> > was a lot of information on it.
> >> > Roger
> >> > -----Original message-----
> >> > From: joekc at roadrunner.com
> >> > Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 02:01:23 -0700
> >> > To: lfalen lfalen at turbonet.com
> >> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
> >> >
> >> > > Roger,
> >> > >
> >> > > This, too, strikes me as a tu quoque fallacy. What do LBJ and the
> >> > > Chicago Machine have to do with whether or not Liddy was wrong? If
> >> > > Liddy was wrong, he was wrong. If what the others did was the same,
> >> > > then they were wrong, too.
> >> > >
> >> > > I confess that I didn't know anything about LBJ until your post. Here
> >> > > is a NYTimes article about a book on the subject, ''Means of
> >> > > Ascent,'' by Robert A. Caro.
> >> > >
> >> > > http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CEFD9133BF932A25751C0A966958260
> >> > >
> >> > > There are important differences between Watergate and and the LBJ
> >> > > case. First, there is just one book that I know of suggesting that
> >> > > LBJ stole a campaign, compared with volumes of information about
> >> > > Watergate. That LBJ did commit fraud is not universally acknowledge
> >> > > whereas the crimes of Watergate are.
> >> > >
> >> > > Second, there is no Obama/LBJ connection. And LBJ is dead. The
> >> > > original post in this thread asked a simple question: If Ayers is a
> >> > > problem for Obama, isn't Liddy a worse problem for McCain? My answer
> >> > > is "Yes." But I don't really think that either is a problem in the
> >> > > sense that you should, say, not vote for one of the candidates
> >> > > because of the connection. That is guilt by association. The fact
> >> > > that McCain has not distanced himself from Liddy is no reason to not
> >> > > vote for McCain. It is odd (given that he is running for president
> >> > > and Liddy helped Nixon cheat in winning a presidential election) but
> >> > > not a reason not to vote for him.
> >> > >
> >> > > But this says nothing about your main point, which is that if Liddy
> >> > > was wrong, so was LBJ -- provided that Caro is correct (which is
> >> > > debatable). I have no problem with saying that if LBJ stole an
> >> > > election, that was wrong. It has no bearing on this thread, though.
> >> > >
> >> > > --
> >> > > Joe Campbell
> >> > >
> >> > > ---- lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote:
> >> > > > Joe
> >> > > > I have never said I condoned or that I did not think what the
> >> > > > Watergate group did was wrong. You have not answered ny question
> >> > > > about Johnson or the Chicago Machine who were successful in
> >> > > > steeling elections.
> >> > > > Roger
> >> > > > -----Original message-----
> >> > > > From: joekc at roadrunner.com
> >> > > > Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 07:46:49 -0700
> >> > > > To: lfalen lfalen at turbonet.com
> >> > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
> >> > > >
> >> > > > > Roger,
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Watergate is significant not for the event itself but because it
> >> > > > > revealed a host of other illegal
> >> > > > > activities performed by the Committee to Re-Elect the President
> >> > > > > (CREEP). I won't list these since
> >> > > > > Andreas already mentioned many of those activities. Or you could
> >> > > > > just google "Watergate" and
> >> > > > > find out the list for yourself. Again, it was not just Watergate.
> >> > > > > Liddy was part of a team that
> >> > > > > performed numerous illegal activities to steal a presidential
> >> > > > > election.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Suppose that you were running for office and you found out that a
> >> > > > > group of Democrats rigged the
> >> > > > > primary so that you would win (thinking you had the worse chance
> >> > > > > of winning in the main
> >> > > > > election), stole and released private files indicating that your
> >> > > > > campaign manager had psychiatric
> >> > > > > problems (I'm trying to find the closest analogy to a VP in your
> >> > > > > case), performed illegal wire taps,
> >> > > > > and broke into your campaign headquarters. Later you are crushed
> >> > > > > in the election, loosing by a
> >> > > > > landslide. Are you really going to tell me that you would shrug
> >> > > > > it off and say, "Oh, well, it doesn't
> >> > > > > matter since the election wasn't even close!"
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > The fact is that we'll never know how close the election would
> >> > > > > have been were it not for the
> >> > > > > actions of CREEP (including Liddy and others).
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Here is another analogy. Should Barry Bonds be elected to the
> >> > > > > Baseball Hall of Fame? After all, he
> >> > > > > has more homeruns than anyone in baseball history. Surely he
> >> > > > > would have hit enough homeruns to
> >> > > > > gain membership in the Hall even if he didn't cheat. Does that
> >> > > > > matter? Were you Commissioner of
> >> > > > > Baseball, would it be appropriate for you to associate with one
> >> > > > > of the guys who sold him steroids?
> >> > > > > Or should you, would you, distance yourself from him?
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > --
> >> > > > > Joe Campbell
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > ---- lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote:
> >> > > > > > Joe
> >> > > > > > I dont condone the watergate group, but it did not change the
> >> > > > > > election. Do you also condemn Linden Johnson and the Chicago
> >> > > > > > Democratic machine who have stolen elections?
> >> > > > > > Roger
> >> > > > > > -----Original message-----
> >> > > > > > From: joekc at roadrunner.com
> >> > > > > > Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 07:25:01 -0700
> >> > > > > > To: lfalen lfalen at turbonet.com
> >> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > Roger,
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > How can the destruction of property be worse, less
> >> > > > > > > democratic, than directly subverting an election?
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > --
> >> > > > > > > Joe Campbell
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > ---- lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote:
> >> > > > > > > > Elections have been stolen from the beginning of this
> >> > > > > > > > county. Linden Johnson stole the election in his first run
> >> > > > > > > > for congress (missing ballot boxes) and the chicago machine
> >> > > > > > > > (dead people voting). None of this is right and the people
> >> > > > > > > > responsible should have been prosecuted. The destruction of
> >> > > > > > > > property (with it's implicit danger of killing people) to
> >> > > > > > > > provoke a change is also a subversion of the democratic
> >> > > > > > > > system and is much worse. Both should be roundly condemned.
> >> > > > > > > > Roger
> >> > > > > > > > -----Original message-----
> >> > > > > > > > From: Donovan Arnold donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
> >> > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 12:16:48 -0700
> >> > > > > > > > To: joekc at roadrunner.com, "g. crabtree"
> >> > > > > > > > jampot at roadrunner.com
> >> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > Gary,
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > You are factually incorrect here.
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > "2. Ayers is worse than Liddy in that he recklessly
> >> > > > > > > > > endangered lives and
> >> > > > > > > > > property while Liddy orchestrated a failed break in.
> >> > > > > > > > > McGovern was never a
> >> > > > > > > > > viable candidate and what occurred at the Watergate hotel
> >> > > > > > > > > did not alter the
> >> > > > > > > > > outcome of the election in '72. Both men were attempting
> >> > > > > > > > > to "circumvent
> >> > > > > > > > > the democratic process" but only one was willing to risk
> >> > > > > > > > > the lives of those
> >> > > > > > > > > who had nothing to do with his goals."
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > Nixon was not after McGovern, he was after Muskie. Muskie
> >> > > > > > > > > was the leading candidate for the Democratic Nomination
> >> > > > > > > > > in 1972. McGovern was a dark horse who did well in
> >> > > > > > > > > caucuses. Muskie was a serious threat to Nixon. Nixon had
> >> > > > > > > > > established at Dirty Tricks Campaign against Muskie.
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > Subverting justice and attempting to rig a national
> >> > > > > > > > > election is a very serious crime.
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > Best Regards,
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > Donovan
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 9/20/08, g. crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> >> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > From: g. crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> >> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
> >> > > > > > > > > To: joekc at roadrunner.com
> >> > > > > > > > > Cc: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> > > > > > > > > Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008, 7:20 AM
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > I disagree with your summary somewhat. I would modify it
> >> > > > > > > > > as follows:
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > 1. What Ayers did was bad and what Liddy did was bad.
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > 2. Ayers is worse than Liddy in that he recklessly
> >> > > > > > > > > endangered lives and
> >> > > > > > > > > property while Liddy orchestrated a failed break in.
> >> > > > > > > > > McGovern was never a
> >> > > > > > > > > viable candidate and what occurred at the Watergate hotel
> >> > > > > > > > > did not alter the
> >> > > > > > > > > outcome of the election in '72. Both men were attempting
> >> > > > > > > > > to
> >> > > > > > > > > "circumvent
> >> > > > > > > > > the democratic process" but only one was willing to risk
> >> > > > > > > > > the lives of
> >> > > > > > > > > those
> >> > > > > > > > > who had nothing to do with his goals.
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > 3. Neither is a major issue in the upcoming election but,
> >> > > > > > > > > you are judged by
> >> > > > > > > > > the company you keep. Ayers is an unrepentant communist
> >> > > > > > > > > terrorist.
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > 4. If Liddy is an issue (and, as you pointed out, he's
> >> > > > > > > > > not) Ayers still is.
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > He, along with Barry's other friends and mentors Frank
> >> > > > > > > > > Marshall Davis, Saul
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > Alinsky, Jeremiah Wright, etc. give us a major insight
> >> > > > > > > > > into what we can
> >> > > > > > > > > expect from the anointed one and many, myself included,
> >> > > > > > > > > do not like what is
> >> > > > > > > > > revealed.
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > g
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > > > > > > > > From: <joekc at roadrunner.com>
> >> > > > > > > > > To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> >> > > > > > > > > Cc: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> > > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, September 19, 2008 7:32 PM
> >> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > Gary (if I may),
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > I'm sorry for suggesting that you don't know anything
> >> > > > > > > > > about American
> >> > > > > > > > > history. It was a sarcastic
> >> > > > > > > > > comment, a failed attempt at humor: "If you think that
> >> > > > > > > > > Nixon resigned
> >> > > > > > > > > because of a botched
> >> > > > > > > > > burglary, then ..."
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > Nonetheless, Liddy was not a "foot soldier." He was a
> >> > > > > > > > > chief
> >> > > > > > > > > operative. Maybe
> >> > > > > > > > > not a general (Nixon)
> >> > > > > > > > > or a lieutenant (Dean) but not a private, more like a
> >> > > > > > > > > sergeant, like William
> >> > > > > > > > > Cally. Certainly others
> >> > > > > > > > > were perhaps more responsible, but weren't Cally and
> >> > > > > > > > > Liddy also responsible
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > for their actions?
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > Lastly, I'm not trying to suggest that McCain should
> >> > > > > > > > > "disassociate
> >> > > > > > > > > himself
> >> > > > > > > > > from the man." I believe
> >> > > > > > > > > in redemption. I can wrap my head around the idea that
> >> > > > > > > > > Liddy is reformed.
> >> > > > > > > > > I'm not asking McCain
> >> > > > > > > > > to distance himself from Liddy (though were I running,
> >> > > > > > > > > I'd want to make it
> >> > > > > > > > > clear that cheating is
> >> > > > > > > > > not the American way).
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > You've forgotten about the initial thread. The point is
> >> > > > > > > > > that
> >> > > > > > > > > Republican's
> >> > > > > > > > > have been suggesting
> >> > > > > > > > > that the Obama-Ayers connection is an issue. If you
> >> > > > > > > > > google "Obama Ayers
> >> > > > > > > > > controversy" you get:
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama–Ayers_controversy
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > But if you google "McCain Liddy controversy" there is no
> >> > > > > > > > > similar
> >> > > > > > > > > wikipedia
> >> > > > > > > > > listing. Or any listing
> >> > > > > > > > > that deals with this "controversy" since it is not a
> >> > > > > > > > > controversy.
> >> > > > > > > > > That was
> >> > > > > > > > > the initial point of the
> >> > > > > > > > > post, namely. that if the former is a controversy, then
> >> > > > > > > > > so should be the
> >> > > > > > > > > latter.
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > I'm happy to say that McCain-and-Liddy is fine (though I
> >> > > > > > > > > find it odd that
> >> > > > > > > > > someone who is running
> >> > > > > > > > > for the presidency of the US doesn't distance himself
> >> > > > > > > > > from someone who has
> >> > > > > > > > > tried to circumvent
> >> > > > > > > > > the democratic process). But then what is all this hay
> >> > > > > > > > > about
> >> > > > > > > > > Obama-and-Ayers?
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > To summarize:
> >> > > > > > > > > 1. Ayers is bad and Liddy is bad. (I'm not suggesting
> >> > > > > > > > > that Ayers is good.)
> >> > > > > > > > > 2. Liddy is worse than Ayers (one blew up buildings; the
> >> > > > > > > > > other was part of a
> >> > > > > > > > > team that
> >> > > > > > > > > succeeded in winning a presidential election, in part, by
> >> > > > > > > > > cheating).
> >> > > > > > > > > 3. Neither is an issue in the recent election, for guilt
> >> > > > > > > > > by association is a
> >> > > > > > > > > fallacy.
> >> > > > > > > > > 4. If Ayers is an issue (and Republicans have made it an
> >> > > > > > > > > issue), then Liddy
> >> > > > > > > > > is a bigger issue.
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > All the best, Joe
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> >> > > > > > > > > > I know a bit about American history and Watergate in
> >> > > > > > > > > > particular. Are you
> >> > > > > > > > > > trying to tell me that Watergate was all about G.
> >> > > > > > > > > > Gordon Liddy? Liddy was
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > a
> >> > > > > > > > > > minor player in the Watergate scandal, a foot soldier
> >> > > > > > > > > > who ended up bearing
> >> > > > > > > > > > the brunt of the punishment for people above him. John
> >> > > > > > > > > > Dean, A Watergate
> >> > > > > > > > > > principal who has been held up on this forum as a man
> >> > > > > > > > > > whose opinion is
> >> > > > > > > > > > worthy of respectful consideration, had far more to do
> >> > > > > > > > > > with Watergate and
> >> > > > > > > > > > it's subsequent cover up then Liddy ever did. Liddy
> >> > > > > > > > > > readily admitted
> >> > > > > > > > > that
> >> > > > > > > > > > he did the crime, he did the time, he paid his debt to
> >> > > > > > > > > > society and has
> >> > > > > > > > > > gone
> >> > > > > > > > > > on to lead a decent life. That McCain should have to
> >> > > > > > > > > > move heaven and earth
> >> > > > > > > > > > to disassociate himself from the man seems
> >> > > > > > > > > > unreasonable.
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > g
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > > > > > > > > > From: <joekc at roadrunner.com>
> >> > > > > > > > > > To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> >> > > > > > > > > > Cc: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 6:38 PM
> >> > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > You are twisting the argument. No one is sticking up
> >> > > > > > > > > > > for Ayers. The
> >> > > > > > > > > > > point
> >> > > > > > > > > > > is that if Ayers matters
> >> > > > > > > > > > > to Obama's reputation, Liddy should matter to
> >> > > > > > > > > > > McCain's.
> >> > > > > > > > > Another point is
> >> > > > > > > > > > > that, relatively speaking,
> >> > > > > > > > > > > Ayers is not worse than Liddy and Liddy is not better
> >> > > > > > > > > > > than Ayers. I
> >> > > > > > > > > > > think
> >> > > > > > > > > > > Liddy is far worse.
> >> > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > Watergate revealed a much deeper threat to American
> >> > > > > > > > > > > democracy. The
> >> > > > > > > > > > > simple
> >> > > > > > > > > > > fact is that Nixon
> >> > > > > > > > > > > cheated in a broad number of ways. Cheated in winning
> >> > > > > > > > > > > the
> >> > > > > > > > > presidential
> >> > > > > > > > > > > election. Look up "Watergate," do a bit of research,
> >> > > > > > > > > > > and
> >> > > > > > > > > learn something
> >> > > > > > > > > > > about American history. Are you trying to
> >> > > > > > > > > > > tell me that that Nixon resigned the presidency
> >> > > > > > > > > > > merely because of an
> >> > > > > > > > > > > unsuccessful burglary?
> >> > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > What does democracy stand for if not for fair
> >> > > > > > > > > > > elections for the
> >> > > > > > > > > > > presidency
> >> > > > > > > > > > > of the US, where the
> >> > > > > > > > > > > people may be certain that the choice is the product
> >> > > > > > > > > > > of their will
> >> > > > > > > > > and
> >> > > > > > > > > > > not
> >> > > > > > > > > > > the will of a select few?
> >> > > > > > > > > > > Do you think that Barry Bonds deserves the home run
> >> > > > > > > > > > > king crown if it
> >> > > > > > > > > > > turns
> >> > > > > > > > > > > out that he took
> >> > > > > > > > > > > steroids? No. He cheated. At the very least, Nixon
> >> > > > > > > > > > > cheated in his
> >> > > > > > > > > second
> >> > > > > > > > > > > presidential bid, cheated
> >> > > > > > > > > > > in an election for the president of the US. He won
> >> > > > > > > > > > > unfairly and Liddy
> >> > > > > > > > > > > helped.
> >> > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > And Ayers did not get off scot free. The charges were
> >> > > > > > > > > > > dropped. Why?
> >> > > > > > > > > > > Prosecutorial misconduct.
> >> > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > --
> >> > > > > > > > > > > Joe Campbell
> >> > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> I guess since the argument being put forward is that
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> Ayers should
> >> > > > > > > > > be
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> given a
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> bye because he didn't really cause any harm, the
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> same slack
> >> > > > > > > > > needs to be
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> granted to Mr. Liddy. After all, the Watergate break
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> in was
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> unsuccessful
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> and
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> the burglars (a fairly incompetent bunch) were all
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> arrested. So,
> >> > > > > > > > > since
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> no
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> presidential campaign was hijacked and no vote was
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> taken out of
> >> > > > > > > > > the
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> hands
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> of
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> the people it seems to me that you are holding
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> G.Gordon to a much
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> higher
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> standard. At the very least Ayers committed an act
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> of gross
> >> > > > > > > > > vandalism
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> and
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> reckless endangerment and got off Scot free. Liddy
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> was complicit
> >> > > > > > > > > in a
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> failed
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> break in and did five and a half years. He did the
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> crime and he
> >> > > > > > > > > did the
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> time. Throwing in some silly disclaimer whenever his
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> name comes
> >> > > > > > > > > up
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> seems
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> as
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> daft and unnecessary as saying "setting off bombs
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> designed
> >> > > > > > > > > to maximize
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> injury and death in public places is a very, very
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> bad thing.
> >> > > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> g
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> From: <joekc at roadrunner.com>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> To: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 7:20 AM
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
> >> > > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> > What would be worse: a terrorist from another land
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> > blowing
> >> > > > > > > > > up some
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> > buildings or a terrorist from
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> > another land hijacking a presidential campaign and
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> > ensuring
> >> > > > > > > > > that one
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> > candidate wins over
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> > another? I think that hijacking a presidential
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> > campaign is
> >> > > > > > > > > about the
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> > worst
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> > thing that anyone can
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> > do in a democracy. I'm a bit shocked that not
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> > everyone
> >> > > > > > > > > sees it this
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> > way.
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> > Like Donovan I'm no fan
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> > of Ayers but to post anything on this topic
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> > without
> >> > > > > > > > > condemning Liddy
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> > seems
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> > to be an insult to our
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> > form of government. Why not at least throw in a
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> > "Oh, by
> >> > > > > > > > > the way
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> > taking
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> > the
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> > vote for president out
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> > of the people and putting it into the hands of a
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> > few is a
> >> > > > > > > > > very, very
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> > bad
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> > thing."
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> > --
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> > Joe Campbell
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> > ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> >> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Read what I wrote. I did not claim that he killed
> >> > > > > > > > > anyone. I said
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> that
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> the
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> act of setting off explosives wrapped in nails in
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> public
> >> > > > > > > > > places is
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> akin
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> to attempted murder. If I light your apartment
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> building
> >> > > > > > > > > on fire and,
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> by
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> the grace of God, no one is injured or killed am
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> I
> >> > > > > > > > > mearly guilty of
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> failure to obtain a permit for an open burn?
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> g
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> From: Donovan Arnold
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> To: Andreas Schou ; vision2020 ; g. crabtree
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 11:46 PM
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack
> >> > > > > > > > > Obama
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Gary,
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> I don't condone the actions of Ayers. But
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> he
> >> > > > > > > > > never killed
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> anyone.
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> To say he did is an incorrect statement. If you
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> can
> >> > > > > > > > > demonstrate to
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> me
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> (an
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> online article etc.) he killed someone, I will
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> accept
> >> > > > > > > > > your statement
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> as
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> fact. Otherwise, I say your judgment and
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> understanding
> >> > > > > > > > > on this
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> matter
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> is
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> deeply in question.
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Best Regards,
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Donovan
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> --- On Wed, 9/17/08, g. crabtree
> >> > > > > > > > > <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> wrote:
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> From: g. crabtree
> >> > > > > > > > > <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers &
> >> > > > > > > > > Barack Obama
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com,
> >> > > > > > > > > "Andreas Schou"
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> <ophite at gmail.com>, "vision2020"
> >> > > > > > > > > <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Date: Wednesday, September 17, 2008,
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> 5:30 AM
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> "Are you insinuating that Bill Ayers
> >> > > > > > > > > tried to kill
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> people?"
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> No, I am not insinuating I am saying it
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> flat
> >> > > > > > > > > out. Placing
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> anti
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> personnel bombs in public places is attempted
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> murder.
> >> > > > > > > > > When the
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> vermin
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> in
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Baghdad or Sader City or Fallujah set of IED's
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> they
> >> > > > > > > > > don't know the
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> names
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> of those they are attempting to murder and maim.
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Is it
> >> > > > > > > > > your
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> contention
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> that they are not trying to kill people?
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> g
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> From: Donovan Arnold
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> To: Andreas Schou ; vision2020 ; g.
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> crabtree
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> 1:42 AM
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> &
> >> > > > > > > > > Barack Obama
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> "No small accomplishment. Oh
> >> > > > > > > > > yeah, he has never
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> attempted to slaughter soldiers and police via
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> the
> >> > > > > > > > > cowardly practice
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> of
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> hiding and detonating explosives wrapped in
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> nails."
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Are you insinuating that Bill
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Ayers
> >> > > > > > > > > tried to kill
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> people? I am no fan of Ayers. But I think you are
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> off
> >> > > > > > > > > base saying he
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> killed, or even attempted to kill people. If you
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> think
> >> > > > > > > > > this, please
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> provide us with the names of people Ayers
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> attempted to
> >> > > > > > > > > kill, or who
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> he
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> killed.
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> The people that McCain worked
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> for
> >> > > > > > > > > between 1979 and
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> 1992
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> harmed more people than Ayers.
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Best Regards,
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Donovan
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> --- On Tue, 9/16/08, g.
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> crabtree
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> From: g. crabtree
> >> > > > > > > > > <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Bill Ayers
> >> > > > > > > > > & Barack
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Obama
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> To: "Andreas Schou"
> >> > > > > > > > > <ophite at gmail.com>,
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> "vision2020"
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Date: Tuesday, September 16,
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> 2008,
> >> > > > > > > > > 7:24 PM
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> So what's your problem with the G-Man? The guy
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> did
> >> > > > > > > > > his time in
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> anything
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> but
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> country club conditions until your hero, James
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Earl
> >> > > > > > > > > Carter, commuted
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> his
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> sentence. He never ratted out his associates and
> >> > > > > > > > > he's managed to
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> support
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> himself and his family as an ex-con. No small
> >> > > > > > > > > accomplishment. Oh
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> yeah,
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> he
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> has never attempted to slaughter soldiers and
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> police via
> >> > > > > > > > > the
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> cowardly
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> practice of hiding and detonating explosives
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> wrapped in
> >> > > > > > > > > nails. All
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> things
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> considered, I know that I would much rather
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> associate
> >> > > > > > > > > with a man who
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> served
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> his time and was released from prison than an
> >> > > > > > > > > unrepentant attempted
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> murderer
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> whose only regret is that he couldn't cause more
> >> > > > > > > > > carnage and mayhem.
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Of
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> course that's just me.
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> g
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> From: "Andreas Schou" <ophite at gmail.com>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> To: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 6:32 PM
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Subject: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > They both knew each other. They were both
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > appointed
> >> > > > > > > > > to co-chair an
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > education panel by Mayor Daley, and the prior
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > state
> >> > > > > > > > > Senator from
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > Obama's seat introduced him at Bill Ayers'
> >> > > > > > > > > house. No large,
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> ongoing
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > connection. But here's the thing:
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> >
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > Why isn't John McCain's friendship with G.
> >> > > > > > > > > Gordon Liddy a campaign
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > issue? Is there any defensible reason for
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > treating
> >> > > > > > > > > Liddy like a
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > rehabilitated member of the community, rather
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > than
> >> > > > > > > > > as a threat to
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > the
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > Republic? If so, why?
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> >
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > -- ACS
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> >
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> >
> >> > > > > > > > > =======================================================
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > List services made available by First Step
> >> > > > > > > > > Internet,
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > serving the communities of the Palouse since
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > 1994.
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > http://www.fsr.net
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> >
> >> > > > > > > > > =======================================================
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> >
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> =======================================================
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> List services made available by First Step
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Internet,
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> serving the communities of the Palouse since
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> 1994.
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> http://www.fsr.net
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> =======================================================
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> =======================================================
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> List services made available by First Step
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Internet,
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> serving the communities of the Palouse since
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> 1994.
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> http://www.fsr.net
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> =======================================================
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> > =======================================================
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> > List services made available by First Step
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> > Internet,
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> > http://www.fsr.net
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> > =======================================================
> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >
> >> > > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > =======================================================
> >> > > > > > > > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >> > > > > > > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> > > > > > > > > http://www.fsr.net
> >> > > > > > > > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> > > > > > > > > =======================================================
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >>
> >>
> >
> > =======================================================
> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > http://www.fsr.net
> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > =======================================================
> >
>
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