[Vision2020] Daniel C. Dennett On Separation of Church And State

[g. crabtree]

"As an atheist, I believe that the government is formed by common
consent, and that our leaders are on notice that there are particular
rights that, if removed, will cause the abrupt and violent withdrawal
of that consent. Or do you actually believe that divine intervention
will occur if those rights are taken away? If not, what does a 'divine
guarantee' of those rights mean?"

No, I do not necessarily think that there would be some sort of divine 
intervention should my rights be taken away. (all though I don't completely 
rule it out either. I believe in a wonderfully capricious God) What I do 
think is that if your rights are granted by common consent in the form of 
government they are no rights at all. If the herd decides to take some of 
your "rights", who are you to complain? The group has spoken. Easy come, 
easy go. You can try and round up a bunch of your buddies (51% of the 
electoral collage) and attempt to restore your group given "rights" but if 
you fail, hey thems the breaks. Your rights no longer exist. I assume you 
will live happily with this result. After all, you did think it a swell idea 
to take the democracy before faith pledge. I personally don't believe that a 
right can be taken away. My ability to exercise it might be limited but the 
right will always exist.

g

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andreas Schou" <ophite at gmail.com>
To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
Cc: "Ted Moffett" <starbliss at gmail.com>; "vision2020" 
<vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 5:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Daniel C. Dennett On Separation of Church And 
State


>> I hate to disagree with the hero of some of this lists members but, this 
>> is
>> ass backwards. I seem to recall that early on in the little experiment 
>> that
>> is this country the thinking was that God grants us certain unalienable
>> rights and that governments are instituted among men to help secure these
>> rights.
>
> You remember incorrectly. John Adams was a Unitarian. Jefferson was an
> irreligious deist, as was Franklin. Madison and Washington were both
> Anglicans (later, Episcopalians) and favored separaion of church and
> state. No major drafters of the Constitution were religious
> conservatives -- though largely more conservative than modern
> Americans, they were also largely less religious.
>
>> When the government becomes destructive to these ends it is the
>> right of the people to alter or abolish it. The principle that secures
>> American religious freedom is that it's Divinely bestowed. Placing God 
>> and
>> religion subordinate to country is akin to making the master subordinate 
>> to
>> the servant.
>
> This is an ahistorical crock. The abstract, civic Jeffersonian deity
> -- the god that's on our money -- isn't the wholehearted
> monarchy-endorsing god of the Bible. It's that particular god that
> Jefferson tried very hard to excise entirely from the Bible.
>
>> As an atheist, is the theory that all our rights are  bestowed
>> on us by the benign benevolence of the blessed government?
>
> No. As an atheist, I believe that the government is formed by common
> consent, and that our leaders are on notice that there are particular
> rights that, if removed, will cause the abrupt and violent withdrawal
> of that consent. Or do you actually believe that divine intervention
> will occur if those rights are taken away? If not, what does a 'divine
> guarantee' of those rights mean?
>
> -- ACS
>