[Vision2020] Candidate issues - Foreign Policy

lfalen lfalen at turbonet.com
Mon Oct 20 11:32:02 PDT 2008


Nick
I do not know all the pros and cons of the Monenegro-Serbia dispute. You seem to think I am a blind follower  of McCain. You should know better. I am nether going to condemn him nor exonerate him for any connection to wrongful behavior here. If you condemn him for this, why have I not heard anything from you about Obama's connections to Tony Rezco and Bill Ayres. There has plenty of wrong doings by republicans and I have stated so. Libby deserved to go to prison. Nixon deserved to be impeached. The stuff with Jack Abrenoff was wrong( This also included democrats).  I have asked you to be even handed and also condemn the wrong doing of democrats. I am still waiting.
Roger
-----Original message-----
From: nickgier at roadrunner.com
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 10:28:02 -0700
To: lfalen lfalen at turbonet.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Candidate issues - Foreign Policy

> Hi Roger,
> 
> I have attached the entire article from "The Nation."  The fact that McCain's campaign manager Rick Davis lobbied for Montenegro and that McCain palled around with a Russian oligarch who has essentially taken over the country cannot be dismissed as "a grain of salt."
> 
> As for "tit for tat," Obama does not have over a 100 former lobbyists running his campaign, nor has he palled around with people from countries which McCain himself calls dangerous. Nor would Obama stiff a good ally such as Spain.
> 
> Nick
> 
> Here is my summary of the The Nation's article:
> 
> The McCain campaign staff is loaded with former lobbyists, and until very recently Rick Davis, McCain's campaign manager, was receiving $30,000 a month to represent Fannie and Freddie. Since 2006 Davis' firm Davis Manafort has been on the payroll of Montenegro, whose independence from Serbia McCain called it "the greatest European democracy project since the end of the cold war."
> 
> According to an article in The Nation (10/20/08), Montenegro is now known as "Moscow by the Mediterranean."  Denis MacShane, former British diplomat, contends that "Montenegro is almost a new Russian colony, as rubles flow in to buy property and business in the tiny state."  A very interesting experiment in democracy, indeed.
> 
> A Russian billionaire by the name of Oleg Deripaska bought Montenegro's aluminum plant, which contributes 80 percent of Montenegro's export earnings.  Former Ambassador Richard Sklar stopped advising the government when he saw that the Russians we getting a "sweetheart deal."  Davis took up where Sklar left off and introduced McCain to Deripaska in Switzerland in January, 2006, and then seven months later Deripaska helped McCain celebrate his 70th birthday in Montenegro.
> 
> Since 2003 Deripaska has received helped from numerous GOP lobbyists, including former Senator Bob Dole and Richard Burt, a foreign policy advisor to McCain since 2000.  Dole's company earned $1.38 million during Montenegro's independence campaign, and Dole recommended that Davis take over the lobbying contract. 
> 
> McCain apparently sees no problem in enabling our new antagonist in Montenegro, but he now says that he would not talk to a good European friend.  In a rambling, sometimes incoherent interview to the Spanish media, McCain would not commit to talking to Spain's Prime Minister Zapatero, with whom Secretary of State Condi Rice asserts we have "warm" relations.  
> 
> Earlier in the interview the reporters had been asking about new leftist leaders in Latin America, and they thought that McCain mistakenly thought that Zapatero was one of them.  McCain's campaign later clarified that he knew that Zapatero was the leader of Spain's government, and only reason for McCain's defiant stance appears to be Zapatero's decision to withdraw all of Spain's troops from Iraq. 
> 
> ---- lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote: 
> > Nick
> > You are correct that iraq attacked Iran, however thet both were trying to dominate the area. I accidentally deleted your article on Monenegro. I tried to find it in the achieves, but could not see it. I take almost everything printed by the Nation with a grain of salt as I have not found them to be a reliable source. Aside from that, there has been a lot of questionable behaviour by both . I do not like it no matter who does it. You however seem to concentrate only on Republican misbehavior. Please prove me wrong.
> > Roger
> > -----Original message-----
> > From: nickgier at roadrunner.com
> > Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:29:40 -0700
> > To: lfalen lfalen at turbonet.com
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Candidate issues - Foreign Policy
> > 
> > > Hi Roger:
> > > 
> > > You'd better check your history books.  Saddam invaded Iran and we supported that war from the Iraqi side until Oliver North thought up the uber-cynical Iran-Contra deal. As usual Reagan claimed to be asleep and out of the loop. 
> > > 
> > > By the way, what do you think about McCain's campaign manager lobbying for Montenegro (after a hand off from Robert Dole cashing in $1.38 million) and introducing him to the Russian billionaire who bought the aluminum plant, which accounts for 80 percent of Montenegro's foreign exchange? 
> > > 
> > > McCain was in "Moscow on the Mediterrean" to celebrate his 70th BD with the Russian oligarch.  I've sent you the complete article from The Nation (Oct. 20th), which posted earlier on the Vision.
> > > 
> > > And McCain dares to say that Obama is soft on the Russians!
> > > 
> > > Nick
> > > ---- lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote: 
> > > > I never said that they did, but they did invade Iraq not too long ago.
> > > Roger
> > > -----Original message-----
> > > From: Sunil Ramalingam sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
> > > Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:19:25 -0700
> > > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Candidate issues - Foreign Policy
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Roger,
> > > > 
> > > > Has Iran invaded any other countries in the last couple decades?  
> > > > 
> > > > Sunil
> > > > 
> > > > > Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:00:05 -0700
> > > > > From: lfalen at turbonet.com
> > > > > To: no.weatherman at gmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Candidate issues - Foreign Policy
> > > > > 
> > > > > No Wheatherman is right. The only thing these thugs understand is power and the willingness to use it. Kadafi got the message and he now is much more reasonable. All those that negotiated with Hitler lost.
> > > > > Roger
> > > > > -----Original message-----
> > > > > From: "No Weatherman" no.weatherman at gmail.com
> > > > > Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 07:58:50 -0700
> > > > > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Candidate issues - Foreign Policy
> > > > > 
> > > > > > Paul:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Please tell us why you think chit chatting with Ahmadinejad could
> > > > > > possibly accomplish anything and tell us why you think he's a
> > > > > > trustworthy fellow.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 6:46 AM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > Correction.  There's only one way to deal with them if that's the only
> > > > > > > option you leave open for yourself.  If you can save the lives of who knows
> > > > > > > how many US troops and innocent Irani civilians through negotiations, why
> > > > > > > not try?  That's assuming our fears of their having nuclear weapons are
> > > > > > > indeed well-founded, and their threats of attacking another sovereign nation
> > > > > > > are real and imminent.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > No Weatherman wrote:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> It's not unreasonable to require a terrorist state that is armed to
> > > > > > >> the teeth to take a sedative before discussions.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> It is completely absurd to ask a global leader to abandon its foreign
> > > > > > >> policy as well as its international friends before discussions begin.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Ahmadinejad is a lunatic who should not be allowed to host nukes. Iran
> > > > > > >> would destroy Israel as fast as they'd hang a homosexual.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> There's only one way to deal effectively with terrorist leaders. It's
> > > > > > >> not pleasant and the world community will frown on it but in the end
> > > > > > >> terrorists understand only one kind of language — physical violence.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> The Neville Chamberlains and Barack Obamas of the world think they can
> > > > > > >> reason with terrorists, but they cannot. Having tea with Adolf or
> > > > > > >> talking shop with Ahmadinejad will only prolong the inevitable.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> The minute someone threatens to take another person's life, whether
> > > > > > >> individually or nationally, all negotiations should cease and
> > > > > > >> reasonable people must begin contemplating the very thing that Neville
> > > > > > >> and Barack think they can avoid.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Sooner or later someone is going to have to make the decision to take
> > > > > > >> out Iran's nukes. It will probably be Israel, like they took out
> > > > > > >> Iraq's in 81, and I hope they have the complete support of the US.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 6:10 AM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> > > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> Iran is doing the exact same thing Bush is.  They are attempting to get
> > > > > > >>> the
> > > > > > >>> other party to commit to exactly the outcome they want from the talks
> > > > > > >>> before
> > > > > > >>> they begin.  It's the perfect way to look like you want to negotiate when
> > > > > > >>> what you really want is your way or the highway.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> The fact that we do the same thing embarrasses me.  This is not "higher
> > > > > > >>> standards", it's on the level of what third-graders would do.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> Paul
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> No Weatherman wrote:
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> Just when I thought we had the fixin's for an interesting subject to
> > > > > > >>>> discuss, Iran had to go and set two preconditions before they'd meet
> > > > > > >>>> with the US:
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> http://newsbusters.org/blogs/terry-trippany/2008/10/13/iran-refuses-meet-us-without-preconditions
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> IOW, the president of a terrorist state has higher standards for
> > > > > > >>>> negotiation than Barack Obama.
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> On 10/12/08, Art Deco <deco at moscow.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> Paul writes:
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> "I'm happy that Obama has some experience with Islam and Muslims."  In
> > > > > > >>>>> addition, he argues that open discussion without conditions among those
> > > > > > >>>>> that
> > > > > > >>>>> disagree is generally desirable.
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> I can't agree strongly enough with the second sentiment.  While
> > > > > > >>>>> discussion
> > > > > > >>>>> may not always lead to conflict resolution, having no discussion never
> > > > > > >>>>> does.
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> With regard to his first point:
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> I think it a very big mistake to think there is heterogeneity within
> > > > > > >>>>> the
> > > > > > >>>>> so-called Islamic community and within the so-called Christian
> > > > > > >>>>> Community.
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> There are two major Islamic sects between which there is very little
> > > > > > >>>>> harmony, theological or otherwise.  In fact, active news readers will
> > > > > > >>>>> know
> > > > > > >>>>> that the division between the two sects is so great that it frequently
> > > > > > >>>>> provokes murderous acts and other atrocities.
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> According to The Encyclopedia of American Religion there are at least
> > > > > > >>>>> 280
> > > > > > >>>>> identifiable Christian sects of some noteworthy size in the US each
> > > > > > >>>>> with
> > > > > > >>>>> significant but differing sub-sects.  In addition, pick a major ethical
> > > > > > >>>>> issue -- abortion, death penalty, gay marriage, gun control,
> > > > > > >>>>> environmental
> > > > > > >>>>> stewardship, etc -- and it is easy to find major Christian sects on the
> > > > > > >>>>> opposite sides of the issue.
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> Nobody speaks for either the so-called Islamic community or so-called
> > > > > > >>>>> Christian community, and in reality rather than artificial semantic
> > > > > > >>>>> classification, there are no such communities.  Things are far more
> > > > > > >>>>> complex
> > > > > > >>>>> ,and to some extent, much more fluid than that.
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> Discussion is very important.  But it is important to know with whom
> > > > > > >>>>> you
> > > > > > >>>>> are
> > > > > > >>>>> having a discussion, who they may or may not represent, and what power
> > > > > > >>>>> or
> > > > > > >>>>> influence they may yield over those they may claim to represent.  This
> > > > > > >>>>> is
> > > > > > >>>>> especially true on the national and international level.
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> W.
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > >>>>> From: Paul Rumelhart
> > > > > > >>>>> To: No Weatherman
> > > > > > >>>>> Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > > > >>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 4:03 PM
> > > > > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Candidate issues — Foreign Policy
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> I was planning on starting other issues threads, anyway.  I guess I'd
> > > > > > >>>>> like to start with the implication that simply sitting down to talk
> > > > > > >>>>> with
> > > > > > >>>>> someone without preconditions is somehow the wrong thing to do.  If we
> > > > > > >>>>> don't start a dialogue, how are we supposed to get anywhere?
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> Diplomacy used to be this country's strong suit, before our current
> > > > > > >>>>> President trashed out international reputation.  Sit down, discuss,
> > > > > > >>>>> look
> > > > > > >>>>> for points of potential compromise, stand firm on issues we have no
> > > > > > >>>>> room
> > > > > > >>>>> for compromise on.  It's an art that our country seems to have lost.
> > > > > > >>>>>  We
> > > > > > >>>>> have a lot more weapons in our arsenal than tanks and automatic rifles,
> > > > > > >>>>> if we'd just use them.
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> Also, sitting down and discussing issues with bad people, even
> > > > > > >>>>> terrorists, does not transfer those ideas automatically like some kind
> > > > > > >>>>> of virus.  Besides, today's terrorist is yesterday's CIA trainee.  It's
> > > > > > >>>>> a crazy world we live in, and uncompromising positions based on fear
> > > > > > >>>>> doesn't serve us too well in it.
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> I'm happy that Obama has some experience with Islam and Muslims.  He
> > > > > > >>>>> might be able to get past this country's prejudices and find a solution
> > > > > > >>>>> to Iraq that is workable for everyone.  That is, if he doesn't get shot
> > > > > > >>>>> because some idiot thinks he's an "Ayrab".
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> Paul
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> No Weatherman wrote:
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>> Paul:
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>> Don't be offended but I'd rather not participate in the economic part
> > > > > > >>>>>> of the conversation because I don't believe any candidate can "fix"
> > > > > > >>>>>> the economy and in the end both men offer loser plans.
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>> When you're ready, I'd like to address foreign policy and Barack
> > > > > > >>>>>> Obama's willingness to sit down with rogue world leaders, without
> > > > > > >>>>>> precoditions, like Iran's president who believes Israel should be
> > > > > > >>>>>> "wiped off the map."
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>> The irony with this position is that while some of Obama's LOUD and
> > > > > > >>>>>> dishonest supporters in this forum refuse to engage me at all, their
> > > > > > >>>>>> homeboy Barack Obama wants to sit down with leaders of
> > > > > > >>>>>> terrorist-sponsoring countries without any preconditions that would
> > > > > > >>>>>> hold those countries responsible.
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>> I don't know the reason for Obama's naive approach to foreign policy
> > > > > > >>>>>> but the best explanation for this policy is that Obama has spent a the
> > > > > > >>>>>> vast majority of his adult life palling around with terrorists, both
> > > > > > >>>>>> international and domestic, and so his foreign policy would be no
> > > > > > >>>>>> different.
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>> On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 8:27 AM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> wrote:
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>> Right now, because the money has to come from somewhere and I'd
> > > > > > >>>>>>> rather
> > > > > > >>>>>>> it
> > > > > > >>>>>>> not be on the backs of the middle class, I'd say I'm for shifting
> > > > > > >>>>>>> some
> > > > > > >>>>>>> of
> > > > > > >>>>>>> the tax burden to the corporations instead.  I wouldn't call it
> > > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> "penalizing"
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>> them, but the money has to come from somewhere.
> > > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>> Getting out of Iraq would also help the economy.
> > > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>> Paul
> > > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>> No Weatherman wrote:
> > > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> Apologies. My bad.
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> So where are you on the issue?
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> Penalize corporations or relieve their burden?
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 10:34 AM, Paul Rumelhart
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> I'm sorry, but the hell they do.  I'm not saying that no
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> corporations
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> should
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> make a profit.  That would be silly.  I'm saying that no _specific_
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> corporation has a right to a profit.  They only have a right to be
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> able
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> to
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> compete on a level playing field.
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> If Corporation X goes broke because Uncle Sam raised their taxes,
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> then
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Corporation Y (who has found a way to work a little leaner) will
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> step
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> in
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> and
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> take over their customers.  Likewise, if Corporation X pulls up
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> it's
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> stakes
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> in the US and moves it's headquarters to China, then Corporation Y
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> might
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> just step up to the plate with a "made in America" ad campaign.
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>  It's
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> not
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> like we're going to run every corporation into the ground because
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> we're
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> raising taxes on them.  Like you said, they'll just pass it on to
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> the
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> customer anyway.  But now said customer has a choice - should they
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> spend
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> their extra paycheck money on shoes for the kids, or on a widget
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> from
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Company X?
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Paul
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> No Weatherman wrote:
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> 
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Comrade Paul:
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Corporations absolutely have a right to make a profit and it's
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> possible to tax them right out of existence or out of the country.
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> And if they go broke or abandon the US, how where will the
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> government
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> get its tax revenues?
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Why don't we worry about where people are going to find their next
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> meal
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> before we worry about how corporations are supposed to make their
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> profits?
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 10:10 AM, Paul Rumelhart
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> If you raise the gas prices, the transportation costs are sent on
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> to
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> the
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> consumer.  If you raise the price of some component they need,
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> the
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> costs
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> are
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> sent on to the consumer.  If you raise the minimum wage, the
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> costs
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> are
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> sent
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> on to the consumer.  What Obama wants to do is relieve some of
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> the
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> burden
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> on
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> the "consumer", by lowering their personal tax burden.  With all
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> these
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> costs
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> being passed on to them, lowering their tax burden might actually
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> convince
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> them that they can still buy their product.
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Corporations don't have a right to make a profit.  If economic
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> times
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> are
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> tough, we should be focusing on the individual, not on how well
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> Company
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> X
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> can sell widgets to people that probably don't even need them.
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> If you have a bunch of yahoos making more money than they know
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> what
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> to
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> do
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> with, why overly tax the person that's living on ramen noodles
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> and
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Koolaid?Why don't we worry about where people are going to find
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> their
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> next meal
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> before we worry about how corporations are supposed to make their
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> profits?
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Just my two cents.
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Paul
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> No Weatherman wrote:
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Paul:
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> If you raise taxes on corporations so that you can lower taxes
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> for
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> one
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> sector of the population, how do you think those corporations
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> will
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> recover the money they lost by the tax increase?
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> THEY WILL RAISE PRICES ON THEIR PRODUCT TO RECOUP THEIR LOSSES.
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> THEREFORE, ANY MONEY GAINED BY TAX RELIEF WILL BE LOST AT THE
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> CHECKOUT
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> STAND.
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Punitive tax hikes on corporations do not take place in a black
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> hole
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> and neither does redistribution of wealth. These companies are
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> in
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> business to make money, not pay taxes, and they will make their
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> profit, taxes or not.
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 9:00 AM, Paul Rumelhart
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> This is an attempt to get a discussion started on the issues
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> instead
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> all the threads on who associates with who and who is
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> encouraging
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> the
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> most emotional responses.
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Here are links to the sections on the economy from the
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Democratic
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> and
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Republican candidates for office:
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> John McCain:
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> http://www.johnmccain.com/Issues/jobsforamerica/
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Barack Obama:
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> http://www.barackobama.com/issues/economy/
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> The biggest difference between the two, in my opinion, from my
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> reading
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> is that John McCain is focusing on helping corporations through
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> tax
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> breaks to help the economy whereas Barack Obama is focusing on
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> tax
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> breaks for the middle class instead.  Both plans have a lot of
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> provisions I like - both are looking at different ways that the
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> work/family balance can be strengthened, for example.
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> There's a lot of information there to go through.  Please let
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> us
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> know
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> your thoughts, so we can all become more educated on the
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> candidates
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> positions.  Also, if others want to tackle third-party
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> positions
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> on
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> topics, please do.  I'm not educated enough about them this
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> time
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> around
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> to even know who they all are.
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Paul
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> =======================================================
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>          http://www.fsr.net
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>     mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> =======================================================
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> =======================================================
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>  List services made available by First Step Internet,  serving
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> the
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.fsr.net
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > > > >>>>>   =======================================================
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> =======================================================
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>  List services made available by First Step Internet,  serving the
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> img20081013055300181communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> http://www.fsr.net
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > > > >>>>>   =======================================================
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> =======================================================
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>  List services made available by First Step Internet,  serving the
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> http://www.fsr.net
> > > > > > >>>>>   mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> =======================================================
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>> =======================================================
> > > > > > >>>>>>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > > > > > >>>>>>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > > > > > >>>>>>              http://www.fsr.net
> > > > > > >>>>>>         mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > > > >>>>>> =======================================================
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> =======================================================
> > > > > > >>>>>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > > > > > >>>>>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > > > > > >>>>>              http://www.fsr.net
> > > > > > >>>>>         mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > > > >>>>> =======================================================
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> =======================================================
> > > > > > >>>>>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > > > > > >>>>>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > > > > > >>>>>              http://www.fsr.net
> > > > > > >>>>>         mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > > > >>>>>  =======================================================
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> =======================================================
> > > > > > >>>>  List services made available by First Step Internet,  serving the
> > > > > > >>>> communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > > > > > >>>> http://www.fsr.net
> > > > > > >>>>                             mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > > > >>>> =======================================================
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> =======================================================
> > > > > > >>  List services made available by First Step Internet,  serving the
> > > > > > >> communities of the Palouse since 1994.                 http://www.fsr.net
> > > > > > >>                              mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > > > >> =======================================================
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > =======================================================
> > > > > >  List services made available by First Step Internet, 
> > > > > >  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.   
> > > > > >                http://www.fsr.net                       
> > > > > >           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > > > =======================================================
> > > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > =======================================================
> > > > >  List services made available by First Step Internet, 
> > > > >  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.   
> > > > >                http://www.fsr.net                       
> > > > >           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > > =======================================================
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > =======================================================
> > >  List services made available by First Step Internet, 
> > >  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.   
> > >                http://www.fsr.net                       
> > >           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > =======================================================
> > > 
> > > 
> 
> 



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