[Vision2020] [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: Make-Believe Maverick

Mon Oct 6 12:31:18 PDT 2008

It has been said that John McCain was a poor student. It may be worth noting that Grant was near the bottom of his West Point Class. He beat those that were at the top of the class.
Roger
-----Original message-----
From: "No Weatherman" no.weatherman at gmail.com
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 18:01:54 -0700
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [Bulk] Re:  [Bulk] Re: Make-Believe Maverick

> Paul:
> 
> If we're not crossing wires, this is the sentence in question taken
> straight from the RS story:
> 
> "By his own account, McCain was a lazy, incurious student; he squeaked
> by only by prevailing upon his buddies to help him cram for exams."
> 
> Splitting hairs, but "by his own account" obviously applies to the
> remainder of the sentence but it does not necessarily apply to the
> remainder of the paragraph or the remainder of the story. I have a
> hard time believing that McCain would be so stupid as to document in a
> biography that "He continued to get sauced and treat girls badly.
> Before meeting a girlfriend's parents for the first time, McCain got
> so shitfaced that he literally crashed through the screen door when he
> showed up in his white midshipman's uniform."
> 
> By the time I got to shitfaced and crashing through the screen door I
> figured that RS was taking liberties to place McCain in a false light
> with the words "by his own account." I do not know this. It's just a
> hunch and I could be dead wrong. Maybe he really admitted it but I
> hope not.
> 
> Another example I didn't cite was the "cunt" line which the reporter
> did not substantiate and which was way over the top. I don't doubt
> that McCain led a privileged life and that he dissipated away much of
> his youth. I don't doubt he has a bad tempter. But the explicit detail
> furnished by the reporter is a different story.
> 
> "I wouldn't say NO sources, but they could have done a better job
> explaining where all of their information came from.  For example:
> 
> "COL Dramesi, who had the chance encounter with McCain described in the
> first part of the article, was definitely there, definitely did try to
> escape twice, and even wrote a book about it.  The article states only
> that "Dramesi say today" as a source for those quotes.  Did they
> interview him?  Did they get that from another source?  Did they
> fabricate it?  Remember that fabricating such a thing could get the
> author in a heap of legal trouble.
> 
> "Rita Hauser, who claims that McCain's ambition overrode his basic
> character, appears to really have been on the President's Foreign
> Intelligence Advisory Board (she's now the president of the Hauser
> Foundation).  The article does not give a specific source, but is
> assumed to have interviewed her.  Is this true?
> 
> "In fact, much of the article appears to be quotes from interviews given
> directly to Rolling Stone, but are not specifically noted as such.  It's
> possible they are quotes made in other sources, though no other sources
> are given.
> 
> "Much of the rest of the article is the author's particular slant on
> those quotes and other facts given in the article."
> 
> What I was trying to say is that the reporter did a clever job of
> weaving his narrative around a handful of negative quotes from 15
> different sources but none of those sources confirmed the writer's
> story at any point — especially the points that required confirmation
> — and that's the difference. It was like he air brushed a fictitious
> narrative based upon a true story around his cherry-picked quotations.
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 9:33 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > No Weatherman wrote:
> >>
> >> On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 4:33 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> I took the "by his own account" part to mean he mentioned it in one of
> >>> his
> >>> autobiographies, either "Worth the Fighting For: A Memoir" or "Faith of
> >>> my
> >>> Fathers".  A little googling shows some references to his time spent in
> >>> Annapolis in FomF.  I have not read this book, but I have found many
> >>> references that cite it as a source for his habitually large number of
> >>> demerits (he was in the "century club"), his drinking, and his bad grades
> >>> (he was fifth from the bottom of his class when he graduated).  Here are
> >>> a
> >>> few:
> >>>
> >>> http://www.b-29s-over-korea.com/book_reports/The-John-McCain-Story01.html
> >>> http://www.buy.com/prod/faith-of-my-fathers/q/loc/106/207653945.html
> >>> (contains an excerpt that mentions his large number of demerits, and
> >>> refers
> >>> to "frivolous escapades")
> >>> http://www.slate.com/id/1003569/ (summaries of indiscretions from the
> >>> book)
> >>>
> >>
> >> It's called a false light. Notice the author didn't put it in quotes.
> >>
> >
> > I'm afraid you're confusing me.  I put "frivolous escapades" in quotes,
> > because that was exactly how it was described, by John McCain himself, in an
> > excerpt from his book.  Are those the quotes you were referring to?
> >
> >>
> >>>>
> >>>> 5.      The fifth thing I noticed was the author's objectivity. He
> >>>> really
> >>>> impressed me with his inability to find one mitigating circumstance,
> >>>> one kind construction, one favorable witness, or one good thing to say
> >>>> about Sen. John McCain.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> He does not seem to like him very much, nor did he try overly hard to
> >>> give a
> >>> balanced review of his misdeeds.  That's why I'm asking about this.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Can you ever imagine a scenario where Rolling Stone would do a
> >> favorable piece on a conservative?
> >>
> >
> > I would like to think that yes, someday they might do one, assuming that
> > they have never done one before.  I don't read Rolling Stone, so I have no
> > idea if they feature a conservative in a good light every other edition.
> >
> > I do agree that the piece was definitely against McCain, with no apparent
> > attempt at balance.  However, facts are facts, which is why I'm asking what
> > McCain supporters think of the piece.  Are there alternative explanations?
> >  Did the people quoted have a particular axe to grind?
> >
> >>
> >>>
> >>> McCain has written two memoirs:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> http://www.amazon.com/Faith-My-Fathers-Family-Memoir/dp/0061734950/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1223245385&sr=8-1
> >>>
> >>> http://www.amazon.com/Worth-Fighting-Education-American-Maverick/dp/081296974X/ref=pd_bbs_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1223245385&sr=8-6
> >>>
> >>> and at least two other books:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> http://www.amazon.com/Why-Courage-Matters-Braver-Life/dp/0345513347/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1223245520&sr=1-2
> >>>
> >>> http://www.amazon.com/Hard-Call-Art-Great-Decisions/dp/044669911X/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1223245520&sr=1-8
> >>>
> >>> However, I can't really find the measure of "number of memoirs" to be
> >>> that
> >>> revealing about a candidate, good or bad.  Except, of course, for what
> >>> was
> >>> published in them.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I didn't know that about McCain. My point about the two memoirs was
> >> the Obama is relatively young, politically speaking, to have written
> >> two memoirs already. At this pace he's due for 4 to 6 if he hits
> >> McCain's age. Just a tad bit self-absorbed for a public servant.
> >>
> >
> > Maybe he just enjoys writing, or maybe he feels he has something valuable to
> > say.  I still don't find it a good measure for fitness as a public servant.
> >
> >>
> >>>>
> >>>> 7.      Finally, the last thing I noticed is that if RS could fabricate
> >>>> this much dirt on John McCain, using only 15 sources to confirm
> >>>> absolutely none of the narrative, can you imagine what they would
> >>>> discover if they started asking the hard questions about Barrack
> >>>> Hussein Obama's long-standing personal and professional relationship
> >>>> with domestic terrorist Bill Ayers? Now THAT would be juicy!
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> You use the word "fabricate", when I think you mean "reveal".  Unless you
> >>> have some sources that conflict with what was published in the article.
> >>>  So
> >>> far, I have been able to find sources backing up everything we've
> >>> discussed
> >>> here, some written by John McCain himself.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I literally meant fabricated because the author cited NO sources to
> >> support his narrative. In reality it was a long-winded editorial that
> >> had a few quotes woven into it.
> >>
> >> The worst thing I ever read about McCain was the story of his divorce,
> >> which the author supported with court documents and interviews with
> >> the key players like his ex-wife. It was horrible what McCain did to
> >> that woman -- made me want break his arms and kick his ass. That was a
> >> credible report that didn't need any extra spice from the writer to
> >> make McCain look worse. I'd give the hyperlink but I really don't
> >> remember how I found it.
> >>
> >
> > I wouldn't say NO sources, but they could have done a better job explaining
> > where all of their information came from.  For example:
> >
> > COL Dramesi, who had the chance encounter with McCain described in the first
> > part of the article, was definitely there, definitely did try to escape
> > twice, and even wrote a book about it.  The article states only that
> > "Dramesi say today" as a source for those quotes.  Did they interview him?
> >  Did they get that from another source?  Did they fabricate it?  Remember
> > that fabricating such a thing could get the author in a heap of legal
> > trouble.
> >
> > Rita Hauser, who claims that McCain's ambition overrode his basic character,
> > appears to really have been on the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory
> > Board (she's now the president of the Hauser Foundation).  The article does
> > not give a specific source, but is assumed to have interviewed her.  Is this
> > true?
> >
> > In fact, much of the article appears to be quotes from interviews given
> > directly to Rolling Stone, but are not specifically noted as such.  It's
> > possible they are quotes made in other sources, though no other sources are
> > given.
> >
> > Much of the rest of the article is the author's particular slant on those
> > quotes and other facts given in the article.
> >
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
> 
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