[Vision2020] An Obama Dilemma
joekc at roadrunner.com
joekc at roadrunner.com
Sat Oct 4 15:48:16 PDT 2008
Sorry but after this I'll have to start charging for the logic lesson.
"If Big Windbag wants to persuade others and discuss issues, he should be able to stand behind
his words."
There is no argument indicator here, no "therefore," "since," etc. It doesn't have the form of the ad
hominem argument below. It strikes me as a roundabout way of saying "No Weatherman should
use his real name and stand behind his words." That is the request I noted.
I'm going to have to put you on the bozo filter soon, so please tell me which argument of mine
was fallacious, so I can deal with that asap and get back to work.
--
Joe Campbell
---- No Weatherman <no.weatherman at gmail.com> wrote:
> "Look, if your point was, Sunil argued as follows:
>
> "Dr. No does not stand behind his words.
> "Therefore, his arguments are fallacious."
>
> Exactamundo. Ad hominem fallacy. I believe in order for it to be a
> "request," as you put it, the post would have to include a verifiable
> request, that is, if words have meaning.
>
> As it stands, it was nothing more than a self-serving opportunity to
> name call, which is out of character for Sunil.
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 12:08 PM, <joekc at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> > Look, if your point was, Sunil argued as follows:
> >
> > Dr. No does not stand behind his words.
> > Therefore, his arguments are fallacious.
> >
> > Then, yes, that is an adhominem argument. But that is not what I got out of Sunil's post.
> > Honestly, the post seemed more like a request than an argument for a conclusion. "Stand
> > behind your words if you want me to take you seriously," or something like that. That is not
> > a fallacy, or even an argument. It is a mere request.
> >
> > --
> > Joe Campbell
> >
> > ---- No Weatherman <no.weatherman at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Dr. Campbell,
> >>
> >> The name-calling was not the ad hom. It was immature, but not ad hominem.
> >>
> >> He predicated his argument on an ad hominem fallacy that I do not
> >> stand behind my words but he gave no evidence to support his argument.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 10/4/08, joekc at roadrunner.com <joekc at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> >> > Well, he called you a name but that doesn't make it an ad hominem fallacy. The issue is
> >> > whether he used the insult to "support" his conclusion. And since he's just making a point,
> >> > not really giving an argument, there is no conclusion. It is more of a request that you stand by your words, as I understand it.
> >> >
> >> > So, no, it is not an ad hominem fallacy.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Joe Campbell
> >> >
> >> > ---- No Weatherman <no.weatherman at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Sunil,
> >> > >
> >> > > What words have I not stood behind, or is this another ad hominem argument?
> >> > >
> >> > > I call upon Dr. Campbell to decide.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > On 10/4/08, Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > If Big Windbag wants to persuade others and discuss issues, he should be
> >> > > > able to stand behind his words.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Sunil
> >> > > >
> >> > > > ________________________________
> >> >
> >> > > > From: idahovandal1 at live.com
> >> > > > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> > > > Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 10:52:05 -0700
> >> >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] An Obama Dilemma
> >> > > >
> >> >
> >> > > > If you're really so concerned about persuading voters not to vote for
> >> > > > Obama, you're wasting a lot of ammo doing so on a little listserve in a
> >> > > > little town in Idaho. Rest assured, it's far more likely that Angelina will
> >> > > > leave Brad and the kids, move to Moscow to live with me and support me in
> >> > > > the manner to which I'd like to become accustomed, before our state's 4
> >> > > > electoral votes go to anyone other than a Republican. Perhaps your efforts
> >> > > > would be better spent on a similar forum in a state such as, say, Indiana,
> >> > > > which I understand is very much in play. Just a thought. And to shift
> >> > > > gears, regarding Thursday's debate, this from Kathleen Parker, no screaming
> >> > > > liberal. Let me say for myself, while Ms. Palin may possibly endear herself
> >> > > > to Joe Sixpack, she does nothing for Carl HalfaCase...Carl Westberg
> >> > > > Jr.............".Well, darnit all, if that dadgum girl (wink, wink) didn't
> >> > > > beat the tarnation out of Joe Biden. Maverick Sarah Palin fersure surpassed
> >> > > > expectations and said everything under the sun, also. And Biden smiled and
> >> > > > smiled.
> >> > > > Palin is a populist pro. She hit all the notes that resonate with non-elite
> >> > > > Americans: family (Hi Mom and Dad!), "Can I call ya Joe?" personal
> >> > > > responsibility, Wall Street greed, children with special needs. Her most
> >> > > > effective technique was speaking directly to the American people and letting
> >> > > > Joe know that's what she was gonna do, doggonit.
> >> > > > Stylistically, she used the language of the people to great effect. And,
> >> > > > you know what? If you want to know what the American people care about, you
> >> > > > can go to a kid's soccer game on Saturday and ask parents how they feel, and
> >> > > > "I'll betcha you're going to hear some fear."
> >> > > > I'll have to go to the transcript to figure out what Palin actually said
> >> > > > and try to figure out whose facts were right. But there's no question: She
> >> > > > won the debate on popularity. She did her homework, studied hard, and
> >> > > > delivered with spunk. Still, I had the uneasy feeling throughout that I was
> >> > > > witnessing a data dump from a very appealing droid. Even the winks and jaw
> >> > > > juts seemed slightly programmed. And the question remains: Is she ready to
> >> > > > be president should the need arise?"
> >> > > > By Kathleen Parker | October 3, 2008
> >> > > >
> >> > > > > Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 06:39:09 -1000
> >> > > > > From: no.weatherman at gmail.com
> >> > > > > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> > > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] An Obama Dilemma
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > "This is really a silly game. Below is just another bad argument. Some
> >> > > > > of your opinions are facts and some not and it is doubtful that you
> >> > > > > are the best judge about which is which."
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > I noted your fallacies and you call it "silly" and "another bad
> >> > > > > argument." I wonder what the technical name for that one is.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > "Also, why should I answer your questions if you don't answer mine?
> >> > > > > That's not fair."
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > I caught you equivocating, or having it both ways, with the word
> >> > > > > "fact" and when I called you on it, you ignored my question and
> >> > > > > proceeded to ask me a string of loaded questions. If this is not true,
> >> > > > > please show me where I'm wrong. Otherwise, don't complain about "fair"
> >> > > > > to me.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > "And why are you so upset about this? If you are not either a critic
> >> > > > > of Christ Church or affiliated with Christ Church, why would it bother
> >> > > > > you that someone thought that you were?"
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > I am not the least bit upset, I am not bothered at all, and you cannot
> >> > > > > produce any evidence to the contrary. However, I can produce several
> >> > > > > posts written by you, Ms. Mix, Ms. Lund, and Mr. Hanson where you four
> >> > > > > have been extremely upset and bothered. You are projecting your traits
> >> > > > > on me.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > "I must say if you are trying to prove that you're not, you are doing
> >> > > > > a very bad job. Not nearly as bad as your case against Obama but still
> >> > > > > pretty bad. And it is silly indeed since you could prove your point
> >> > > > > easily by using your real name, or meeting me for lunch later today.
> >> > > > > I'll treat! Of course, if you can't since you're, say, out of the
> >> > > > > country, that would explain a lot!"
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > I am in the country and I sincerely appreciate the offer but I'll take
> >> > > > > a rain check. Now, what fallacy, if any, are you committing when you
> >> > > > > infer a false conclusion from my answer?
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > "Anyway, if you won't use your name or meet me for lunch, I'll have to
> >> > > > > go back to trying to ignore you. Not that I'm very good at it but I'll
> >> > > > > try to be better!"
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > You're very good at misquoting me and misrepresenting me, and you're
> >> > > > > even better at evading responsibility for your dishonest statements.
> >> > > > > But I'm struggling with all those posts that you wrote insisting that
> >> > > > > you never read a word I wrote, yet, now, suddenly and miraculously,
> >> > > > > you have the uncanny ability as a trained logician to describe the
> >> > > > > previously and until-now ignored posts as full of "fallacy after
> >> > > > > fallacy."
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Rather than ignoring me, I would appreciate it if you actually tried
> >> > > > > to engage me — or better yet, engage my one single point that has thus
> >> > > > > far gone unnoticed by the handful of extremely vocal Obama supporters
> >> > > > > on this list.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Barrack Hussein Obama is 47 years old but 20 of his years are a
> >> > > > > complete mystery to America. In the modern history of the US the press
> >> > > > > has never given any candidate such a pass as they have given Obama,
> >> > > > > and yet none of the Obama supporters on this list appear the least bit
> >> > > > > bothered by these facts.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Since I originally engaged you, I have had one question in mind: How
> >> > > > > do you account for this, Dr. Campbell?
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > On 10/4/08, joekc at roadrunner.com <joekc at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> >> > > > > > This is really a silly game. Below is just another bad argument. Some of
> >> > > > your opinions are facts
> >> > > > > > and some not and it is doubtful that you are the best judge about which
> >> > > > is which.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > Also, why should I answer your questions if you don't answer mine?
> >> > > > That's not fair.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > And why are you so upset about this? If you are not either a critic of
> >> > > > Christ Church or
> >> > > > > > affiliated with Christ Church, why would it bother you that someone
> >> > > > thought that you were?
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > I must say if you are trying to prove that you're not, you are doing a
> >> > > > very bad job. Not nearly as
> >> > > > > > bad as your case against Obama but still pretty bad. And it is silly
> >> > > > indeed since you could prove
> >> > > > > > your point easily by using your real name, or meeting me for lunch later
> >> > > > today. I'll treat!
> >> > > > > > Of course, if you can't since you're, say, out of the country, that
> >> > > > would explain a lot!
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > Anyway, if you won't use your name or meet me for lunch, I'll have to go
> >> > > > back to trying to ignore
> >> > > > > > you. Not that I'm very good at it but I'll try to be better!
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > --
> >> > > > > > Joe Campbell
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > ---- No Weatherman <no.weatherman at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > > > > > > I read your words very carefully, because you concluded by jumping
> >> > > > > > > from "as far as I can tell" to "isn't this FACT telling?"
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > As far as I can tell you concluded by calling it a "fact." Is my
> >> > > > > > > reasoned opinion wrong, good Doctor?
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > On 10/4/08, joekc at roadrunner.com <joekc at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> >> > > > > > > > I said as far as I can tell, it is a reflection of my own reasoned
> >> > > > opinion. And I said anonymous
> >> > > > > > > > posters are either supporters or critics. Please read my words more
> >> > > > carefully.
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > And that conclusion follows with a good deal more certainty than any
> >> > > > of your conclusions about
> >> > > > > > > > Obama, which are all -- everyone of them -- based on fallacies.
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > What reason is there for your curious double-standard, that I need
> >> > > > to prove my claims yet you can
> >> > > > > > > > make any reckless statement you want without a hint of real support?
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > And why not deny the allegation if you thought I made it and it is
> >> > > > false. You are curious indeed!
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > And as others have asked time and time again, what possible reason
> >> > > > is there for you to post
> >> > > > > > > > anonymously if you are not trying to hide some affiliation? Use your
> >> > > > real name and I'll be done.
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > --
> >> > > > > > > > Joe Campbell
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > ---- No Weatherman <no.weatherman at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > AHA!
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > What evidence can Dr. Campbell produce to show that I am either a
> >> > > > folk
> >> > > > > > > > > of Christ Church or a critic of Christ Church?
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > Some of you would do well to answer this question and do some
> >> > > > self-examination.
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > On 10/4/08, joekc at roadrunner.com <joekc at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> >> > > > > > > > > > What evidence is there that the five noted by Gary below are
> >> > > > "left wing"? In fact, what they all
> >> > > > > > > > > > have in common is that they were critics of Christ Church. That
> >> > > > is it.
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > So the anonymous posts, as far as I can tell, are either from
> >> > > > folks at Christ Church or from
> >> > > > > > > > > > critics of Christ Church. Does anyone have a counterexample to
> >> > > > this and isn't this fact telling?
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > --
> >> > > > > > > > > > Joe Campbell
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > I believe that Rodger means that the names were brought up
> >> > > > (listed) by
> >> > > > > > > > > > > myself and someone else as examples of anonymous posters. Not
> >> > > > that those
> >> > > > > > > > > > > vision members were posting currently.
> >> > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > g
> >> > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > > > > > > > > > > From: "Craine Kit" <kcraine at verizon.net>
> >> > > > > > > > > > > To: "Chasuk" <chasuk at gmail.com>
> >> > > > > > > > > > > Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 8:24 PM
> >> > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] An Obama Dilemma
> >> > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > >I didn't get any postings by either "heridotus" or "Ford
> >> > > > yesterday.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > I haven't seen anything from either in quite some while. Am
> >> > > > I
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > missing something?
> >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > Kit Craine
> >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 3, 2008, at 12:36 PM, Chasuk wrote:
> >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 12:31, lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com>
> >> > > > wrote:
> >> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > > >>> There were about 5 listed in posts yesterday by Gary and
> >> > > > someone
> >> > > > > > > > > > > >>> else. Two of them were Heridotus and Ford.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> Ah. I would consider J.Ford more a harmless crank than a
> >> > > > real
> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> "left-winger." The others I am unfamiliar with.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > =======================================================
> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> http://www.fsr.net
> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > =======================================================
> >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > =======================================================
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.fsr.net
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > =======================================================
> >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > =======================================================
> >> > > > > > > > > > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >> > > > > > > > > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > http://www.fsr.net
> >> > > > > > > > > > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > =======================================================
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > =======================================================
> >> > > > > > > > > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >> > > > > > > > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> > > > > > > > > > http://www.fsr.net
> >> > > > > > > > > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > =======================================================
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > =======================================================
> >> > > > > > > > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >> > > > > > > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> > > > > > > > > http://www.fsr.net
> >> > > > > > > > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > =======================================================
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > =======================================================
> >> > > > > > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >> > > > > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> > > > > > > http://www.fsr.net
> >> > > > > > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > =======================================================
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > =======================================================
> >> > > > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >> > > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> > > > > http://www.fsr.net
> >> > > > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> > > > > =======================================================
> >> > > >
> >> > > > ________________________________
> >> > > > Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. Learn Now
> >> > > > =======================================================
> >> > > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >> > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> > > > http://www.fsr.net
> >> > > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> > > > =======================================================
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > > =======================================================
> >> > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >> > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> > > http://www.fsr.net
> >> > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> > > =======================================================
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> =======================================================
> >> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> http://www.fsr.net
> >> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> =======================================================
> >
> >
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
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