[Vision2020] Say What? Everyone Deserves Death

[Ted Moffett]

Chas et. al.

What I wrote is "simply wrong?"

It does not matter how many people belief the belief under question,
contradicting your apparent implication that an extremist dangerous belief
characteristic of cults cannot be a mainstream belief, for the belief to be
*characteristic* of the extremist dangerous beliefs of cults

The psychology of cults can occur on a mass scale.  I refer to the worn out
example of Nazi Germany for an example of the "brainwashing" of
millions into beliefs that are characteristic of the extremism of cult
beliefs and behavior.  Parallels can be drawn between this example, and the
manner in which our nation was led to war in Iraq by the "faith" president's
lies and fabrications, supported and believed in by tens of millions of
Evangelical followers, who were a critical voting block that elected Bush,
and cheered the death dealing foolish war in Iraq.  I trust this
paragraph fleshes out the implications of my analysis to answer your
objection?

I also wrote that the belief that everyone deserves death is
"characteristic" of the extremist dangerous beliefs of cults, given a
specific psychological tactic I outlined in my post you answered, which I
paraphrase and expand below:

This tactic involves convincing someone they are inherently and inescapably
morally flawed, and that the only way to escape this fatally morally flawed
condition is your and only your belief system; a psychology of control of
human behavior characteristic of cult methods.   You are attempting
to ensure the absolute loyalty of a person to an ideology and community,
based on manipulating their mind and feelings on a fundamental emotional
level, inducing fear of dire consequences if they disobey (eternal hell
fire, for example), that will result in them rejecting all other belief
systems, not based on a calm rational and factual assessment of the truth or
falsehood of the potential ideologies in question.

Our way or damnation, as I wrote.

I am not merely stating a personal distaste for this belief.  I linked the
"cult like" belief in everyone deserving death, to the commission of real
suffering and harm to human beings (against wilful women, homosexuals,
innocent children, though other harms could be explored).  This is not
merely a matter of my personal distaste.  I rather think it is a matter of
respect for well recognized universal human rights that transcend my
"personal distaste."

As to your assertion that only Christianity entertains the concept of
"original sin," implying that you were correcting a misstatement on my part,
given my statement that "some religions" believe in original sin, consider
that using the word "some" referring to a statement regarding a class of
objects, for example, "Some human beings are 8 foot 11 inches tall," is true
if only one object in that class meets the description.  If only one human
being is 8 foot 11 inches tall, the statement that "Some human beings are 8
foot 11 inches tall" is thus true.  Thus my statement is true as written if
only Christianity entertains the concept of "original sin."

I was trying to be polite (imagine that, given my indictment linking
religion to "extremist dangerous beliefs" characteristic of cults) and not
name specific religion(s) in my post.  You might have noticed that I did not
name Christianity in my post, or any other religion? I did mention Ralph
Nielsen possibly commenting on the Biblical notions of "original sin" but
this was because Ralph is a Biblical scholar.

Ted Moffett

On 5/20/08, Chasuk <chasuk at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 1:40 AM, Ted Moffett <starbliss at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Again, I will state, this kind of thinking (Everyone deserves death) is
> > characteristic of the extremist dangerous beliefs of cults, that
> > use tactics to control people by making them feel inherently and
> inescapably
> > "bad," then offer them only one option to redeem their flawed moral
> fate...
> > Our way or damnation!
>
> I'm sorry, Ted, but this is simply wrong.  It might be nice to be able
> to consign this unattractive thinking to the "extremist dangerous
> beliefs of cults," but it wouldn't be true.  This is not only what
> most Christians who have ever lived have believed, but it is what most
> of them believe now, at the core of their beliefs.
>
> Most Christians still believe in Original Sin.  But maybe you are not
> making a contrary claim and I am just misinterpreting.  Are you
> instead merely expressing your personal distaste of this belief?
>
> I agree that this belief is ridiculous, though not extremist, because
> extremist implies that it lies at the fringes, when it does not.
>
> It might be that modern pastors candy-coat it to make it more
> palatable to their congregation, I don't know.  I'm sure there are
> some pastors who have discarded this ugly, crippling belief
> altogether.  But it is still the majority belief within Christendom.
>
> You speak of Original Sin as a doctrine entertained by "some
> religions," when it has its roots in, and is virtually unique to,
> Christianity.  It isn't part of Islam, Buddhism, or any other extant
> major religion.
>
> Interestingly (and to demonstrate the extent to which Original Sin
> still holds sway), the official Vatican astronomer recently stated:
> ""In my opinion this possibility (of life on other planets) exists";
> "intelligent beings, created by God may exist in outer space" and
> "some aliens could even be free from original sin" concluding "there
> could be (other beings) who remained in full friendship with their
> creator."
>
> Chas
>
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