[Vision2020] Everyone deserves death

[Donovan Arnold]

Ralph,
   
  I am not debating your belief that the Bible states there isn't an afterlife. You seem stuck on wanting to debate that. I cannot debate your belief, it is futile. 
   
  What I am debating is your assertion that someone can know there is no afterlife. I don't believe this is possible. You have presented to me no empirical evidence to support this claim. Quoting the Bible can only change someones belief in an afterlife, is doesn't provide any empirical evidence in support of your claim. 
   
  The other argument you wish to be making, is that Christians don't believe people deserve death for their sins. While the validity of the premise of what they believe can be debated, the fact that they do believe this is undebatedable. The sole basis of Christianity is based on the belief that Christ suffered and died on the cross so we could be forgiven for our sins and have an afterlife with God.  
   
  Best Regards,
   
  Donovan
   
   
   
  

Ralph Nielsen <nielsen at uidaho.edu> wrote:
  RALPH
In the Hebrew Bible there is no eternal life for humans. I quoted God 
himself in Genesis 3:22-24. But it seems Donovan doesn't believe God. 
And he doesn't believe Ralph either.

DONOVAN 
What would be illogical and a fallacy, would be to believe Ralph's 
self appointed interpretation of the Bible, and its meaning, over 
that of trained scholars and religious leaders throughout the world. 
I believe God, I just don't believe you.

RALPH
God said he does not want humans to live forever:
"Then the LORD God said, "See the man has become like one of us,
> knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out his hand and take
> also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"---therefore
> the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the
> ground from which he was taken. He drove out the man; and at the east
> of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim, and a sword flaming and
> turning to guard the way to the tree of life (Genesis 3:22-24).

Ralph also said humans do not live forever. Ralph agrees with God, 
Donovan does not.

"Trained scholars" say:

22-24. Neither the first nor the second account of creation portrays 
humankind as created immortal. Nor does the punishment of v.19, which 
speaks of Adam's returning to the ground from which he was taken, 
mean that he would have lived forever, had it not been for his 
disobedience. Jewish Study Bible, p. 18.

Much later, biblical religion postulated that the ultimate destiny of 
the individual does not end with death. There is not a hint of this 
suggestion in the Torah [Pentateuch], however, or in most of the 
[Hebrew] Bible. There, human death is final. ... With the possible 
exceptions of Elijah and Enoch, all biblical personalities die and 
their death is final. Etz Hayim, Torah and Commentary. p. 1436.

Life after Death. It is generally held by scholars that no hope of 
individual survival after death is expressed in the OT before some of 
its latest passages, which were probably written in the 2nd cent. 
B.C. New Jerome Biblical Commentary. p. 1313.

Concerning the human condition in the Hebrew Bible, "There is no hint 
here of any possibility of meaningful life after death." A Short 
Introduction to the Hebrew Bible, by John J. Collins (Yale 
University). p. 40. (On the same page is "Theological Misconceptions" 
about the Xian Original Sin theory.)



















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