[Vision2020] The Fetus is Not a Baby and is not a Person

[Joe Campbell]

A few clarifications.

First, I did not call Donovan 'Daleovan' or 'Christovan' or 'Dougovan.' I use 
those names to refer to whomever it is that is writing the recent nonsense 
under Donovan's name. Donovan has no right to call me names, since his 
name calling -- radical leftist, non-Christian, elitist, etc. -- started well before I 
ever called him any name. It is also persistent, whether I call him a name or 
not. If the "Donovan rules" apply -- if they do it to you, you can do it back to 
them -- then this recent string of insults was written by Dougovan (etc.).

Second, I'm happy to separate my own beliefs from those of Donovan and his 
friends. I don't believe that two wrongs make a right. I don't think that the 
Bible gives one a license to act like a jackass. I don't think that the intent of 
religion is to make one feel good about oneself at the expense of others. I
don't think that Christians are supposed to point out the sins of others while 
hiding behind their own. I don't believe that the teaching of Christ was 
intended to be a vehicle for political manipulation and personal gain. I don't 
think that being religious gives one a right to suspend reason and use 
deceptive rhetorical techniques -- like allowing one's friends to post under 
one's name. In short, I don't think that all Christians are mean-spirited idiots.
 
I'm going to point this out whenever possible. I don't want to say that you're 
not a Christian, Donovan (or whomever). But I refuse to let people identify 
Christianity with this kind of rude and unreasonable behavior.

--
Joe Campbell

---- Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote: 

=============
Rev Keely,
   
  I will hold my tongue on your liberal paranoid conspiracy theories. And not explore the question of why someone would pretend to be Donovan--because it is just as silly as most of your other nonsense. 
   
  But I must point out that I used Joedus for two reasons. One, he called me "Dalovan", so that gave me license to abuse and distort his name, as he did mine. 
   
  I chose Joedus because it was fitting for the role he takes on making traitorous statements and misleading others about Christ while pretending to be a Christian. 
   
  Best Regards,
   
  Donovan


keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com> wrote:
      .hmmessage P  {  margin:0px;  padding:0px  }  body.hmmessage  {  FONT-SIZE: 10pt;  FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma  }    "Joedus"?????  Well, Donovan, that's a little less than charitable, don'tcha think?  But I'm pretty sure that you're not really Donovan, and I believe I detect the ineffably snotty voice of Chris Witmer . . . 

If I'm wrong about the identity of the "faux Donovan," I'm nonetheless curious as to why these brave Christian men don't use their real names when fighting their version of the good fight.  Masquerading as Donovan or keeping Farris on a short leash seems a little less than manly to me . . . 

Keely



    
---------------------------------
  Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 17:48:36 -0700
From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
To: joekc at adelphia.net
CC: Vision2020 at moscow.com; nielsen at uidaho.edu
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The Fetus is Not a Baby and is not a Person

  Joedus,
   
  I thought you were a Christian? If so, then you know that God sacrificed his own flesh to show how much He loved the people he created. He is sinned against. 
   
  Best Regards,
   
  Donovan

Joe Campbell <joekc at adelphia.net> wrote:
  Dalovan,

So God is not all powerful? He is a victim, able to be taken over by mere 
humans? There was nothing He could have done about it?

-- The Devil's Advocate

---- Donovan Arnold wrote: 

=============
Chas,

Humans have free will. They were the ones that choose and did the torturing. Humans are the ones that demanded the sacrifice. I don't think God was to blame. 

You just were talking to me earlier about the fallacies of thinking, that if you cannot see it, it must not be there. I think this is the case with you. You don't physically see God, so you don't believe in him, and you don't see the situation, so you disagree with the solution. 

God sacrificed himself , his own flesh, for you, not because he was a fool, but because it was the ultimate sacrifice, and the only one that humans could understand and see. 

Best Regards,

Donovan

Best Regards,

Donovan

Chas wrote:
On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 8:59 PM, Donovan Arnold
wrote:

> God is the big prick when we were the ones that tortured and made his Son
> suffer? Something is messed up with that reasoning.

If I planned to have my children tortured, then I would be a big
prick, even if I arranged for Guido to do the actual torturing. Heck,
I would even have an excuse, being a mortal creature with limited
understanding. But God supposedly knows everything, and the best plan
he could come up with for our redemption involved the torture of his
only son.

But there is no way that I'm ever going to convince you, nor you me,
so we should probably table this conversation. Note that I find it an
interesting topic, but it causes passions to run unacceptably high. I
love the message of Jesus, but I dislike the attached mythology. I
try to live by Christ's precepts, and it pains me that I always fail.
However, I partly blame the magical edifice. The edifice always seems
to get in the way of the message.

Chas



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