[Vision2020] [Bulk] Re: Vision2020 Digest, Vol 23, Issue 5
Paul Rumelhart
godshatter at yahoo.com
Fri May 2 18:22:47 PDT 2008
This is a good site if you are interested in the books banned from the
Bible, or just other holy books:
http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/
Paul
donald edwards wrote:
> Keely, you obviously do have a deep understanding of the bible but I
> don't think your target is Ralph. I took Ralph's note to be his way
> of expressing, maybe sarcastically in the second half, how the men in
> control of groups like the latest FLDS justify their actions and moral
> disrepect of their families in their minds. Like, how they think. I
> don't see anywhere where he is supporting their actions nor blaming it
> on religion itself but maybe the crazy interpretations of a book so
> fraught with symbolic meaning that opens the door to anyone seeing
> whatever they are looking for in it, then convincing others to live
> their lives by their new interpretation. The moral is to think for
> yourselves lest you become feed for David Koresh or the next power
> trippin' honky.
>
> Side note, I saw a show recently on the History Channel called "Banned
> from the Bible" which talks of approx. 13 omitted gospels that were
> censored from the bible or chosen not to be included. Some even in
> just the last 6-800 years. One of those had another telling of the
> creation of man and woman where both were created at the same time and
> independantly. I can't remember how, but the woman either wished to
> be or was forced to leave the Earth so then God created Eve from the
> rib of Adam.
>
> I'm sure I'm wrong about the details here but maybe someone on the
> list has a better knowledge of the censored gospels that have been
> uncovered in the last few years that would have been considered a
> threat to the "Man Rules" ideology of the framers of modern religion?
>
> Don
>
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 17:48:35 -0700
> > From: keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The FLDS Church
> > To: Ralph Nielsen <nielsen at uidaho.edu>, Vision 2020
> > <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > Message-ID: <BAY106-W5477A254549D5244426EFE82DA0 at phx.gbl>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> >
> > Ralph presents a witty and insightful description of the FLDS ranch
> in West Texas and the same organization's compound in Bountiful, B.C.,
> comparing their operations with animal husbandry and traditional
> Western ranching . . . and Old Testament theology.
> >
> > Let me say right from the start that I do not have Ralph's
> education, history of academic output, and life experience. Further, I
> am an unabashed believer in the Bible, which I imagine must annoy or
> disappoint him. Still, I think that Ralph's grasp of ranching is
> better than his analysis of the Old Testament, and both are better
> than his apparent willingness to ignore the New Testament's "final
> word" on the end of patriarchy and the mutuality of the sexes.
> >
> > I don't think anyone can seriously disagree that the Old Testament
> is rife with examples of patriarchy as an institution, as well as
> gross examples of patriarchy run amok. I don't much like the O.T.
> system of patriarchy, which had more to do with "one man over
> everyone" in a household than simply "one man over a woman" in any
> religious or civic setting. I consider it residue from the Fall; I
> don't believe, based on the Genesis accounts of creation, that God's
> first intention was anything other than complete mutuality between
> women and men in submission to each other and to the Divine. Male
> dominance entered after the dawning of sin in creation, and it
> developed into an agrarian economic system that depended, however
> sinfully, on the machinations of patriarchy to a ensure a
> householder's access to finite resources. Women, lacking the physical
> strength of men in a hardscrabble, cursed-earth existence, were
> further physically disadvantaged by near-constant pregnancy and lac!
> > tation, and the spectre of dominance by gender, and then by race and
> class, was further ennobled. It wasn't, however, at all noble. Still,
> it may have been inevitable -- again, given the reality of an economy
> of agrarian scarcity and competition.
> >
> > There were good men, undoubtedly, who were considered patriarchs in
> the thousands of years before Christ's incarnation. They may have been
> devout, but they would have been better men -- more Godly men -- had
> they shunned the privileges and powers inherent in a patriarchal
> system and lived "against culture," although doing so could have
> compromised the economic security of the households over which they
> were empowered. And there were, irrefutably, really bad men who
> grabbed the mantle of patriarchy, and it seems some of their
> descendants even today refuse to let go.
> >
> > But they must let go, if they claim the name of Jesus Christ. The
> Gospel of the New Testament turns patriarchy -- all hierarchy, really
> -- on its head. Even the three or four difficult passages in the
> epistles written by the Apostle Paul, those that appear at first
> reading to prohibit women's leadership in the home and church, don't
> negate the radical mutuality of Christ's message. Further, those three
> or four passages, when exegeted properly, reveal themselves as
> culture-bound, limited prohibitions -- and, in First Corinthians,
> themselves appear to run afoul of Paul's nonchalant, confident
> assumption that women will prophesy, or teach authoritatively, in the
> assembly. Paul's proscriptions against women's practice of their
> spiritual gifts is presented as a time- and place-specific situation,
> addressing a particular situation in the Corinthian church. But his
> teachings on the gifts of the Holy Spirit, the function of the church
> and home, the honor due workers in the chur!
> > ch, and the mission of the Church are replete with examples of
> women's and men's equal gifting, mutuality, and equal service in the
> church. It's hard, for example, to explain away the number of women
> commended by Paul in Romans 16 as workers in the church, especially
> the apostle Junia and the deacon Phoebe. First Corinthians resonates
> with a clear symmetry between male and female realities and
> responsibilities in the Christian walk: Woman came from man, all men
> then came from woman, and all people come from God, or the call for
> women to give themselves freely to their husbands sexually, just as
> the men are to give themselves freely, in the same sacrificial way, to
> their wives. The wife has "her say" over her husband in Christ; the
> husband has his as well over her. In Christ, this is a beautiful
> picture of interdependence and mutuality and love. But that's "in
> Christ." It cannot be counterfeited by male power and privilege in ANY
> institution, ANYWHERE, by ANYONE and s!
> > till be "in Christ," who through Paul proclaimed in Galatians 3:28
> > that in the Christian community, as regards privilege and
> participation, "There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male
> and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus . . . "
> >
> > Ralph's description of Old Testament patriarchy is basically
> correct, but the story of patriarchy in the Christian Church has a
> spectacular ending, and it's found in the person of Christ and
> testimony of him in the New Testament. That the men who lead some
> aberrant groups who take the name of Christ choose to wallow like pigs
> in the poke of patriarchy makes Ralph's ranch analogy more clear, but
> to call it "Christian" ignores the lush green pastures of life with
> the Shepherd.
> >
> > Keely
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > From: nielsen at uidaho.edu
> > > Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 08:46:15 -0700
> > > To: Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > Subject: [Vision2020] The FLDS Church
> > >
> > > We have an FLDS church/ranch a lot closer to Moscow than the one in
> > > Texas. It is in Bountiful BC, about 30-odd miles down the Kootenai
> > > River from Bonners Ferry ID. Just google <bountiful bc> and you can
> > > read all about it.
> > >
> > > It is not for nothing that these places are called ranches. Human
> > > beings are being treated like cattle and they are so brainwashed that
> > > they actually enjoy it. It's all very religious, of course. Polygamy
> > > was common for big shots in Old Testament days and the prophet Joseph
> > > Smith got revelations from God stating that a man must have more than
> > > one wife to get into an upper layer of heaven after he dies. So they
> > > are just minding their own business practicing their own religion.
> > >
> > > These ranches are operated along perfectly good principles, both
> > > religious and in keeping with good animal husbandry. According to the
> > > Bible a man's wives and children are his property.
> > >
> > > According to good cattle breeding practice a young heifer is sent to
> > > be bred by a bull when she reaches breeding age. That is exactly what
> > > they do on the FLDS ranches. But it is not good practice to breed a
> > > heifer or cow to her father. So a well managed ranch keeps more than
> > > one bull. Likewise on FLDS ranches. There is a head bull and several
> > > auxiliary bulls. But what to with all the surplus bull calves that
> > > get born? Well, they can't legally turn them into steers so they
> > > simply kick them off the ranch to fend for themselves. Apparently
> > > some of these outcasts are to be found in Bonners Ferry and Salt Lake
> > > City. The head bull in Bountiful BC owns about 30 cows, who have
> > > given him around 80 calves. A real man of property! And a man of God
> > > too!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > =======================================================
> > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > > http://www.fsr.net
> > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > =======================================================
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Express yourself wherever you are. Mobilize!
> >
> http://www.gowindowslive.com/Mobile/Landing/Messenger/Default.aspx?Locale=en-US?ocid=TAG_APRIL
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> > ------------------------------
> >
> > =======================================================
> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > http://www.fsr.net
> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > =======================================================
> >
> > End of Vision2020 Digest, Vol 23, Issue 5
> > *****************************************
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Back to work after baby– how do you know when you’re ready?
> <http://lifestyle.msn.com/familyandparenting/articleNW.aspx?cp-documentid=5797498&ocid=T067MSN40A0701A>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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