[Vision2020] [Bulk] Re: Vision2020 Digest, Vol 23, Issue 5

Paul Rumelhart godshatter at yahoo.com
Fri May 2 18:22:47 PDT 2008


This is a good site if you are interested in the books banned from the 
Bible, or just other holy books:

http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/

Paul

donald edwards wrote:
> Keely, you obviously do have a deep understanding of the bible but I 
> don't think your target is Ralph.  I took Ralph's note to be his way 
> of expressing, maybe sarcastically in the second half, how the men in 
> control of groups like the latest FLDS justify their actions and moral 
> disrepect of their families in their minds.  Like, how they think.  I 
> don't see anywhere where he is supporting their actions nor blaming it 
> on religion itself but maybe the crazy interpretations of a book so 
> fraught with symbolic meaning that opens the door to anyone seeing 
> whatever they are looking for in it, then convincing others to live 
> their lives by their new interpretation.  The moral is to think for 
> yourselves lest you become feed for David Koresh or the next power 
> trippin' honky.
>  
> Side note, I saw a show recently on the History Channel called "Banned 
> from the Bible" which talks of approx. 13 omitted gospels that were 
> censored from the bible or chosen not to be included.  Some even in 
> just the last 6-800 years.  One of those had another telling of the 
> creation of man and woman where both were created at the same time and 
> independantly.  I can't remember how, but the woman either wished to 
> be or was forced to leave the Earth so then God created Eve from the 
> rib of Adam.
>  
> I'm sure I'm wrong about the details here but maybe someone on the 
> list has a better knowledge of the censored gospels that have been 
> uncovered in the last few years that would have been considered a 
> threat to the "Man Rules" ideology of the framers of modern religion?
>  
> Don
>  
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 17:48:35 -0700
> > From: keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The FLDS Church
> > To: Ralph Nielsen <nielsen at uidaho.edu>, Vision 2020
> > <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > Message-ID: <BAY106-W5477A254549D5244426EFE82DA0 at phx.gbl>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> >
> > Ralph presents a witty and insightful description of the FLDS ranch 
> in West Texas and the same organization's compound in Bountiful, B.C., 
> comparing their operations with animal husbandry and traditional 
> Western ranching . . . and Old Testament theology.
> >
> > Let me say right from the start that I do not have Ralph's 
> education, history of academic output, and life experience. Further, I 
> am an unabashed believer in the Bible, which I imagine must annoy or 
> disappoint him. Still, I think that Ralph's grasp of ranching is 
> better than his analysis of the Old Testament, and both are better 
> than his apparent willingness to ignore the New Testament's "final 
> word" on the end of patriarchy and the mutuality of the sexes.
> >
> > I don't think anyone can seriously disagree that the Old Testament 
> is rife with examples of patriarchy as an institution, as well as 
> gross examples of patriarchy run amok. I don't much like the O.T. 
> system of patriarchy, which had more to do with "one man over 
> everyone" in a household than simply "one man over a woman" in any 
> religious or civic setting. I consider it residue from the Fall; I 
> don't believe, based on the Genesis accounts of creation, that God's 
> first intention was anything other than complete mutuality between 
> women and men in submission to each other and to the Divine. Male 
> dominance entered after the dawning of sin in creation, and it 
> developed into an agrarian economic system that depended, however 
> sinfully, on the machinations of patriarchy to a ensure a 
> householder's access to finite resources. Women, lacking the physical 
> strength of men in a hardscrabble, cursed-earth existence, were 
> further physically disadvantaged by near-constant pregnancy and lac!
> > tation, and the spectre of dominance by gender, and then by race and 
> class, was further ennobled. It wasn't, however, at all noble. Still, 
> it may have been inevitable -- again, given the reality of an economy 
> of agrarian scarcity and competition.
> >
> > There were good men, undoubtedly, who were considered patriarchs in 
> the thousands of years before Christ's incarnation. They may have been 
> devout, but they would have been better men -- more Godly men -- had 
> they shunned the privileges and powers inherent in a patriarchal 
> system and lived "against culture," although doing so could have 
> compromised the economic security of the households over which they 
> were empowered. And there were, irrefutably, really bad men who 
> grabbed the mantle of patriarchy, and it seems some of their 
> descendants even today refuse to let go.
> >
> > But they must let go, if they claim the name of Jesus Christ. The 
> Gospel of the New Testament turns patriarchy -- all hierarchy, really 
> -- on its head. Even the three or four difficult passages in the 
> epistles written by the Apostle Paul, those that appear at first 
> reading to prohibit women's leadership in the home and church, don't 
> negate the radical mutuality of Christ's message. Further, those three 
> or four passages, when exegeted properly, reveal themselves as 
> culture-bound, limited prohibitions -- and, in First Corinthians, 
> themselves appear to run afoul of Paul's nonchalant, confident 
> assumption that women will prophesy, or teach authoritatively, in the 
> assembly. Paul's proscriptions against women's practice of their 
> spiritual gifts is presented as a time- and place-specific situation, 
> addressing a particular situation in the Corinthian church. But his 
> teachings on the gifts of the Holy Spirit, the function of the church 
> and home, the honor due workers in the chur!
> > ch, and the mission of the Church are replete with examples of 
> women's and men's equal gifting, mutuality, and equal service in the 
> church. It's hard, for example, to explain away the number of women 
> commended by Paul in Romans 16 as workers in the church, especially 
> the apostle Junia and the deacon Phoebe. First Corinthians resonates 
> with a clear symmetry between male and female realities and 
> responsibilities in the Christian walk: Woman came from man, all men 
> then came from woman, and all people come from God, or the call for 
> women to give themselves freely to their husbands sexually, just as 
> the men are to give themselves freely, in the same sacrificial way, to 
> their wives. The wife has "her say" over her husband in Christ; the 
> husband has his as well over her. In Christ, this is a beautiful 
> picture of interdependence and mutuality and love. But that's "in 
> Christ." It cannot be counterfeited by male power and privilege in ANY 
> institution, ANYWHERE, by ANYONE and s!
> > till be "in Christ," who through Paul proclaimed in Galatians 3:28
> > that in the Christian community, as regards privilege and 
> participation, "There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male 
> and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus . . . "
> >
> > Ralph's description of Old Testament patriarchy is basically 
> correct, but the story of patriarchy in the Christian Church has a 
> spectacular ending, and it's found in the person of Christ and 
> testimony of him in the New Testament. That the men who lead some 
> aberrant groups who take the name of Christ choose to wallow like pigs 
> in the poke of patriarchy makes Ralph's ranch analogy more clear, but 
> to call it "Christian" ignores the lush green pastures of life with 
> the Shepherd.
> >
> > Keely
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > From: nielsen at uidaho.edu
> > > Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 08:46:15 -0700
> > > To: Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > Subject: [Vision2020] The FLDS Church
> > >
> > > We have an FLDS church/ranch a lot closer to Moscow than the one in
> > > Texas. It is in Bountiful BC, about 30-odd miles down the Kootenai
> > > River from Bonners Ferry ID. Just google <bountiful bc> and you can
> > > read all about it.
> > >
> > > It is not for nothing that these places are called ranches. Human
> > > beings are being treated like cattle and they are so brainwashed that
> > > they actually enjoy it. It's all very religious, of course. Polygamy
> > > was common for big shots in Old Testament days and the prophet Joseph
> > > Smith got revelations from God stating that a man must have more than
> > > one wife to get into an upper layer of heaven after he dies. So they
> > > are just minding their own business practicing their own religion.
> > >
> > > These ranches are operated along perfectly good principles, both
> > > religious and in keeping with good animal husbandry. According to the
> > > Bible a man's wives and children are his property.
> > >
> > > According to good cattle breeding practice a young heifer is sent to
> > > be bred by a bull when she reaches breeding age. That is exactly what
> > > they do on the FLDS ranches. But it is not good practice to breed a
> > > heifer or cow to her father. So a well managed ranch keeps more than
> > > one bull. Likewise on FLDS ranches. There is a head bull and several
> > > auxiliary bulls. But what to with all the surplus bull calves that
> > > get born? Well, they can't legally turn them into steers so they
> > > simply kick them off the ranch to fend for themselves. Apparently
> > > some of these outcasts are to be found in Bonners Ferry and Salt Lake
> > > City. The head bull in Bountiful BC owns about 30 cows, who have
> > > given him around 80 calves. A real man of property! And a man of God
> > > too!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > =======================================================
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> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Express yourself wherever you are. Mobilize!
> > 
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> >
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> >
> > End of Vision2020 Digest, Vol 23, Issue 5
> > *****************************************
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Back to work after baby– how do you know when you’re ready? 
> <http://lifestyle.msn.com/familyandparenting/articleNW.aspx?cp-documentid=5797498&ocid=T067MSN40A0701A> 
>
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>  List services made available by First Step Internet, 
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